Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Do I need a server?

I'm a solo doc and I have AC running on 3 computers.

One is the "server" in the office managers room and the others are in the examining rooms.
The "server" computer is also used by the manager for our PM software, so thus it is not a true dedicated server.

It seems more often than not, my exam room computers have trouble finding the AC database file. I have to manually search for it on the network even though the main "server" computer is running. How can I avoid this? Do I need a dedicated computer solely for AC database or is there a flaw in the software?

Thanks

Are your workstations Home or Pro machines, eg XP Home, Pro, Vista, 7, etc. It is important that the main machine is on and that if you have Home machines and are doing peer to peer you have to have them logged in.

Explain what version of operating system each are running and when you have the problems.

Steven,

My "server" is Windows 7 Ultimate, however the workstations are Windows 7 Home Premium.

You are using a peer to peer - Home Premium must actually log onto the server everytime they are rebooted, turned off, etc - what usually happens is someone tries to run AC before this and it cannot find the database - will run the setup utility and tell you to look for it. If you had pro versions then you would "log on" and it would remember that and not happen any more. This happens to everyone who uses "Home" in their "office". This is one of the reasons that some will tell you that you should never use the home version - you can but you can always get this problem potentially - will have to learn to deal with it. If you turn off your computers at night this will happen if you do not let your "server" come all the way on and log in before someone hits AC.....

Use Home at home and WIN7 Professinal at work. Home wasn't and isn't meant for networking.

I'm using the Pro version and this seems to be generally true. I have had to train my staff to quit shutting off the 'server' whenever they have a problem with it, as then the other computers tend to go hunting for the DB. I'm glad I went with the Pro 32 bit version for stability and would recommend the same to everyone.

I have been working on Win XP Home in my 2 exam rooms for the past year.
I encountered similar problem early on, and found out that the answer was to make sure AC is same version on all computers. Things have been working fine for almost 8-9 months.

Bert?s comment is absolutely right. I have 8 computers. My computer ?server? was XP Pro and now WIN 7, 64 bit. The rest are either XP Pro or Win7 Pro except for the two in my exam rooms. Pro version has made my life, dealing with the network, a lot easier.

Thanks fircha. Glad everything is working well.

@Chris Is anyone using your "server" computer?

Yes, my CMA uses that one. It is a Dell Optiplex. I'm wondering if it would be better to put it all alone and just do the 'serving'. The Brother multifunction fax is hardwired by ethernet to the Aiport Express switch/router, the labcorp printer is plugged into my Airport Express, and my front desk CMA has a wirless Dell Vostro, and I carry a Fujitsu Lifebook wireless from room to room. There is an external 2T HDD connected to the 'server' that takes a windows backup and amazing charts backup every night. Carbonite stays sinked by internet for offsite backup and so I can access files anywhere in the world. Yes, I can get your labs from Italy. I also use LogMeIn from home. In case any of you have any bright ideas, the premises is guarded by Guardian Security with a Radio backup in case you also are 'bright' enough to cut the phone lines first. I digress.

Chris,

This is the first time that I have actually read what I have talked about for years. It obviously occurs on a peer to peer and not on a server/client.

It is never a good idea for someone to be using the computer that houses the database for a multitude of reasons:

1. What you just said. A workstation that is being used will require reboots more often.
2. The person using the computer will use valuable resources including RAM and processor.
3. The person using the computer is likely not a poweruser and ths could accidentally browse to the SQL Server files and delete them. Add to that going into the AC folder and changing things or deleting the AC folder.
4. The person using the computer could intentionally do the above.
5. That computer user could download programs or browse the Internet thereby increasing the chance of Trojans, viruses and other malware.

So, yes, put it somewhere by itself, preferably somewhere you can lock it.

SERVER = YES! i just got mine put in last night after 17 months (i know bert has been on me about this for a long long time!). . .It works great, my staff doesn't notice the difference in how AC runs and their files getting saved (just had to change the short cut paths to the server now). And it is much safer on there!

Setting up VPN soon!

Thank you everyone for your replies!

Now, what kind of server /computer specifications do I need?

With four computers I recommend the following:

Dell PowerEdge T110 Server (tower model)
8GB RAM
Two 146GB 10,000rpm SAS drives in RAID 1 array
Windows Server 2008 R2 Foundation Server**
2.53GHz X3440 Xeon quad core processor
Standard video
Standard on-board network card

**This edition of Windows can support a maximum of 15 users.
**This edition of Windows cannot use more than one processor.

Hardware and all for this server, along with a three year on-site parts and labor warranty should run you about $1800 give or take with taxes and S&H.

JamesNT

This is one of my favorite questions. It is like saying, "I have decided to buy a car. Which one should I buy?" The answers are endless.

The setup James has recommended will serve your needs. You just have to understand it is Dell's lowest end tower server. Personally, I would not go below the T410 or T610. The 610 may be more than you need, but Dell considers it the replacement of the PowerEdge 2900 which was pretty much an industry standard for a SMB. It all depends what you are looking for. You are going to have to do a little research. If you ask 100 people, you will get 100 different answers for RAID. You will also need a RAID card. Go to:

http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/poweredge-tower-server-deals?cat=poweredge-tower-server-deals&dgc=IR&lid=&cid=us:en:bsd:enterprise-products&ref=gzilla

Click on the compare boxes and compare six. That will get you started. While James has you will two drives which gives you two empty drive bays, if you need six down the road, you will need more than the T110.

So, there is no right or wrong.

Dr. Niko,
Sorry I am a little late to this party.

"Do I need a server?"

No.
My situation is somewhat similar to yours. While I appreciate and respect the advice (and advisors) above, I think I have been fine without one.

Jon,

If you look at the original question, the author is asking do I need a dedicated computer to run AC on. My love for servers, notwithstanding, I don't think he needs a server. I do think he needs a dedicated computer for AC. I've probably given over 1,000 opinions on here (likely 50 of them heeded, lol), but the advice I stand by the most is don't let a user on the computer that is running the database.

As I mentioned to a private message earlier, any advice I give is designed to save money in the long run. And when I say long run I mean 3 - 5 years; leaning more toward 5.

However, as Indy has pointed out, the reality is that many here, especially those just starting their practice, may not be able to plunk down another $1800 and change on a server. Is using a workstation as your AC server ideal? No. Will it work? Yes. Will having a server be more cost effective in the long run as opposed to using a workstation as a server? My money is on the server.

However, this is all my opinion based on my experience and my experience clearly does not encompass the entire population of practices using Amazing Charts. Therefore, I give the opinion that I think will fit the majority. Or, at least I hope it will.

JamesNT

Again, the author is not asking for server suggestions. He is simply asking, "Do I need to use a dedicated 'computer' to run AC?" And, that is a resounding yes.

I think all of need to be careful when recommending servers to those who are asking what kind of server do I need. Recommending a low end server can be just as bad advice as recommending the high end server.

My feeling is that anyone asking if they should not let their receptionist do the scheduling and billing on the same computer as SQL Server and AC should not be purchasing a server based mostly on our input. They should get local help and learn and feel comfortable in how to customize their server computers. When they get down to choosing RAID and number of drives and how much RAM and they have no idea (as I did not in the beginning), the will realize how daunting a task it can be.

Sure, the first step is to write down what you need the computer for and then to get help as to what to purchase. Dell could help as well, and I have always found them to be honest. But, there is also consideration of down the road. My first server did fine, but after a year I had completely outgrown it.

And, while a mirror is a good RAID config, this person may want a RAID5 or RAID10 or a RAID1 and a RAID5. Just in reading this paragraph, my guess is Dr. Niko will step back and realize how confusing the world of servers is. He would probably be much better off with a good PC and WIN7 Pro and then when he needs a server and understands how to buy them, he can move that PC into a client area.

I think it is a whole different story if you or I were hired by him to set up a network, and he just said to set up a good server for me. But, if he is going to purchase a server on his own, I think he is better off asking lots of questions in the area of processors, RAM, RAID, drives, drive speed, etc.

Again, though, I don't think he was looking to spend $1500 or more just to have a dedicated computer.

Bert,
You are correct; it looks like I misinterpreted his question, largely based on the title of the topic, "Do I need a server?".

When I started with AC, my interpretation of the advice offered here was that a client-server set-up was recommended by many over a peer-to-peer, but was not felt to be essential. You particularly stressed that either way, the machine functioning as a "server" in the network should be dedicated to AC and should not be used directly by any users. I took that advice (one of the 50/1,000 ) and have been happy with it.

I think I understand why many of you think a client-server with a true server is preferred, I just want new users to understand that many of us function with some success without one.

Thanks Jon,

Good post. I think it clarifies the thread.

I agree with Bert, excellent post, Jon.

JamesNT

I read the above posts with interest. I am about to move forward with AC. I have currently a peer-to-peer network with less than 8 users, but was unsure whether I needed to spend the $$ to purchase Small Business Server or use Win 7 pro initially on a server-client network until I could see what I needed. Helpful. I'll probably get a dedicated Win 7 Pro computer with plenty of RAM.

In the client server setup, there is greater efficiency. Being able to install software on 10 computers via group policy versus manually installing software one by one on each computer. You get the Fax Server Driver which makes it a breeze to give everyone the ability to Print directly to Fax. Like just yesterday, I deployed OpenOffice (to replace MsOffice), Firefox 4, and a Java installation on all 10 of our computers. Doing this one by one remotely would take hours (also locally). There are a myriad of other benefits: SSL, RWW, Sharepoint, Exchange, etc. I figure if you want to start off, start strong. Bert and some other gurus could make some tutorials on how to implement group policy. (It takes like 3-5 minutes tops), but will save you hours in the future.

Having it be dedicated is a huge plus. You probably know this, but it was have to be 64-bit to have more than 3.2 GBs of RAM. Get an SSD.

This topic comes up over and over. It all depends on what you want to do. It always kills me that users talk like AC will be the only program or database they will run.

One of my favorite quotes comes from my network IT specialist I use. I asked him why he never works on peer-to-peer. His answer. It's way too difficult.

Client/Server debatable. Client\Small Business Server (domain)is awesome.

Get an SLC SSD aka Enterprise SSD as these have greater longevity and reliability, if you want an SSD. The price of SLC SSDs is still rather prohibitive. Also, given the small size of the AC database, most of it usually sits in RAM. I wonder how beneficial an SSD would be for Amazing Charts. Don't get an SSD if you're getting SBS 2011 because Microsoft recommends 80 GB minimum for SBS 2011. It would be better to get an HDD.

We have a peer to peer Network.
The PC running as the "server" is a Quad Core, 4GB, 32 bit system with XP pro.
We have 9 client pcs. running Win XP pro and there are 32 bit systems. I have to say that we have been happy with the stability of the network and speed
Recently, we got a new Win 7 pro laptop 64 bit which seems slower handeling AC compare with the old laptops (XP Pro 32 bit system.) This new laptop which has an Intel i5 processor does everything very fast except AC.
Could the unexpected difference in speed due to system difference 64 bit trying to connect to a 32 bit "server" system? or could it be the operative system? Win XP vs Win 7.
Thank you in advance for any comments.

I don't see how it would be either. I am guessing ther are ALL wired.

You should post the specifications of the computers in question. 64 bit OS's can run 32 bit applications no problem. Windows 7 is pretty quick. Slightly faster or on par with an equivalent xp system.

Bert,
Thanks for your reply
Yes, all PC are wire connected.
It is my perception that the new Laptop Win 7 Pro, Intel i5 processor is slower than the old ones which are Core 2 Duo, XP pro 32 bit systems handeling AC.
So, if you don't thing is either reason, then, maybe there is something wrong with this new laptop.

I just don't see how a new laptop, I am guessing with at least 2GB of RAM and an i5 processor would be appreciably slower than the XP Pro.

R. Arjona,

WIN7 is definitely better at networking than XP. I have mostly WIN7 64-bit and a few scattered XP Pros and, if anything, the WIN7s are faster. Of course, it depends on your setup.

My bet would be that XP Pro in a peer-to-peer has a 10 connection limit. This INCLUDES networked printers and scanners. It's a little weird, because it is usually all or nothing.

To test it take three clients off the network. Reboot all the other computers so there is an election (may not need to do this but just to be sure they all are given a connection).

If this works and your laptop is as fast as the others, change your "server" to a WIN7 machine, which can handle 20 simultaneous connections. Otherwise, go with a server OS, which can pretty much handle as many as you throw at it with the exception of SBS which is 75.

Bert, I didn't even count the printers and scanners.
We have total of 9 pc and 4 peripherals (printer, scanners)
connected.
I guess we better get a new "server" WIN 7 Pro machine.
Once we do, in the next week or two, I will make a comments about it.

If you get a WIN7 computer, go 64-bit and put about 8GBs of RAM in it. Always better to go 2 X 4GB, then 4 X 2GB.

Also, consider Microsoft Foundation.

I'm not sure how much 8GB would be of use *in a dedicated Win 7 Pro* machine. If this is a dedicated AC computer, SQL Server Express will use 1GB Max and Windows Processes maybe 1GB max. Even now with iTunes, firefox (500 mb), chrome, and skype. I'm using about 2GB. 500 MB of that 2 GB is from Firefox with 20 tabs open ha. Then again, RAM is pretty cheap nowadays.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820139075

Nuff said. I spend that on Starbucks in a week.

I know this is for your system where you will be running more things, but 16GB is still a lot of RAM. I think somewhere you said, "I love my RAM."

I just want to make sure he doesn't get 2GB, lose a GB to SQL, then lose the rest on the processes, et. al.

Who knows maybe he wants to run VMWare on it and run four OS. Or 10.

Idk, it just seemed like he was goin' for a basic dedicated server. Anyways, it's always nice to have that option of future expandability. Or he could a get 1 4GB stick and add later if necessary.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231310

This would be much better at the same price:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231314

Or even at lower price (Recommended, the real world differences are almost non-existent between DDR3 1333 and DDR3 1600):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231311

These RAM modules have custom heat spreaders. Gaming series so they're even faster/can be overclocked (not recommended). Main thing is that they disperse heat better, less thermal stress=greater lifetime and more reliability.

Hey now, that was my personal computer. That was gaming RAM which was clocked at 1866 MHz. I love my RAM ha. But our AC Server does have 16GB (ECC RAM) because we have SBS 2011 which is idling about 13GB right now. So it seems like a worthy investment for that.

Sandeep,

With all due respect are we going to get into a flame war over memory and which is cheaper by $10.00. The memory I chose, for the money, is excellent.

I think I said "I know this is for your personal computer."

All I was trying to do was make a suggestion. 4GB or 8GB. Who cares. Maybe he doesn't feel comfortable installing RAM.

So, my suggestion would be to let him decide. Plenty of RAM is one of the benefits of a 64-bit machine.

13GB? Really? Wow.

All in good fun, but let's move on.

It was fun. I like the RAM with red heat spreaders, it's like a sports car ha. Just getting the best bang for the buck.

When I set up my network, the advice was to go with Win7 32-bit for compatibility reasons. I am using a Brother MFC for my e-faxes. Do you think this is still a valid argument? All the systems are win7-32bit PRO and should I pick a 64bit for the new 'server' computer and throw it into the mix?