Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Censorship, Free Speech, Double Standards & Carlin

A couple of us posted in "No Shows." http://tinyurl.com/3xa37f

In post 2114, the following was censored:

"I realize this is all a PITA (pain in the [censored]), but it's the only way we can make sure it gets to all the necessary sections."

Here was my post, #2115:

I wouldn't worry about sensoring the word "[censored]" as it has definitely been used here before. <G>

I guess this was deemed far too egregious for the userboard, as it was quickly changed to the following:

"I wouldn't worry about sensoring the word "[censored]" as it has definitely been used here before. <G>"

I simply find it hard to believe that using that word is so offensive that it must be censored. If I am wrong, and I offended anyone, I sincerely apologize.

My guess is there is a bot here which checks each post due to how quickly it was changed. I decided to do a little Googling and read one of the greatest comedy routines ever from a man who Comedy Central called the second funniest standup comedian of all time, George Carlin. Of course, the irony is Richard Pryor was chosen number one. Now, if anyone should be censored....

George Carlin, of course, was the author of the seven words you never hear on television. An excerpt is below.

"....I like to think that the same words that hurt can heal, it is a matter of how you pick them. There are some people that are not into all the words. There are some that would have you not use certain words. There are 400,000 words in the English language and there are 7 of them you can't say on television. What a ratio that is. 399,993 to 7. They must really be bad. They'd have to be outrageous to be separated from a group that large. All of you over here, you 7 Bad Words. That's what they told us they were, remember?...." http://tinyurl.com/fr28j for the full bit.

Just so this post won't be a total waste, I ran across this blog while searching for George Carlin's work. It was rather serendipitous. I am not sure if I completely agree, but it would be interesting hearing from the group. It was written by Gary Schwitzer and published over seven years ago at www.mayohealth.org before it changed to a www.mayoclinic.com.

Over a 25-year career in medical journalism and health care communications, I have developed my own list of taboo terms - all of which appear in print and on the public airwaves too frequently. I offer my own list of the seven words you shouldn't use in medical news and health care communications. . I urge colleagues - both health care providers and professional communicators - to abandon their use for the sake of health consumers everywhere. I urge consumers of all health care information to be wary of these words because they mean different things to different audiences.

Cure
Miracle
Breakthrough
Promising
Dramatic
Hope
Victim

Entire blog at http://tinyurl.com/2b6667

Maybe we could have a list of words that are inappropriate or a list that are. Maybe we could have a EULA which stands for Everyone Use Language Appropriately.

Actually, I think these are censored by bots. I had just used the word "a*s," and it was changed immediately to [censored]. Is that a function of the board? Or is it set up that way by the administrators?

Bert,
Very interesting. Free speech is so very dear to all of us I hope and hopefully we can all respect eachothers right to such speech even if we are upset or even offended. I think of the Nazi party and it's right to be offensive by marching and carrying signs in Stokie Illinois years ago in a Jewish community. They are a-holes for sure, but this is still the America I love (although King George wants to change that) and they have the right to speak even there. And I myself am an NJB (Nice Jewish Boy).

And I agree that double standards are NOT cool. I'm sure I'd have more to say on this later, but my kids are burnt and I must run them home now before they blow. I too Love George Carlin's 7 words, good call my friend. Have a great weekend and keep the faith.

Paul

Here in Washington State, there are 10 words which is SO OFFENSIVE that using them could lead to suspension/termination of our hospital privileges. An edict came out from our medical staff president stating that if these words were ever used in medical records, we would be cited as a "disruptive physician" and there will be documentation of this conduct on our permanent (and secret) medical staff files. (Our medical staff files are so secret, even I cannot get a copy of my own files!). They are much worse than George Carlin's seven words as you can lose your career over these words.

At the risk of being taken off the user board and possibly have my license to use Amazingcharts revoked, (let alone my medical license pulled), I will share these toxic words to see what kind of irreversibly harmful effects they will have on our Amazingchart userboard readership:
1. I.U. or U.
2. M.S., MSO,
3. qD, QID, Q.O.D.
4. H.S.
5. D/C
6. S.Q.
7. cc
8. A.U., A.D., A.S.
9. O.U., O.S., O.S.
10. T.I.D.
There! I did it. Feels so good to be bad! Take that, George Carlin!

Roy,

That is awesome. Way to go. Again, must be the magic Pixie Dust. Let me try to see if I can do it. OK, here goes:

1. [censored] or [censored]
2. [censored], [censored],
3. [censored], [censored], [censored]
4. [censored]
5. [censored]/[censored]
6. [censored]
7. [censored]
8. [censored], [censored], [censored]
9. [censored], [censored], [censored]
10 T.I.D.

Just what I thought: Your medical staff president got me. I guess this goes in my file.

I asked him why T.I.D. made it through. He said they must have missed it.

I really need to get a life.

Bert,
Another word you must enter on your list of censored words in today's medicine is "Fat".

Leslie

Leslie,

OMG: You almost read my mind. And, overweight and obese are close behind even though obese is probably an approved medical term.

It's funny how the two opposites make such a different impact. I can say thin all I want (unless there is anorexia in play), but use the word fat.... I generally don't use the word fat; the only context is when a parent thinks their infant is WAY under weight, and they are actually slightly overweight. I used to tell them that their baby is actually 'fat' just to make them feel better, but I have been burned by that so I simply tell them their child is healthy.

I have learned that hard way on two things: 1) don't use the word fat and, 2) never joke about giving a child a shot to improve his or her behavior. Oh, yes, parents do it ALL the time, making it seem so normal to do it, yet I have lost patients over that. So, now I don't do it. At least I learn from my mistakes.

I am taking great pride in being the one who got censored last week for "PITA", and it's taking me back to my seventies protest days (though nowadays, I guess it's "don't trust anyone UNDER 30")... In one of my first posts re: AC to EZ exports, I used "patootie" for the villanous "a--", so we have changed our anagram to "PITP". Anything to please the man. Attica, Attica!

Bert,
I was thinking about this a lot over the weekend while under the frontend of my Jeep for two days installing my new Radiator Support/Tow points. One must remember what makes something truely offensive to those who don't have simple, viseral, knee jerk reactions to any and all things that are potentially offensive. It's the intent of and reason why certain words, phrases or images were chosen. To discribe this I may be a bit offensive now to some who read this and so I both "warn" and "appologize" here and now ahead of time.

Think about using any one of the 7 words. Were they intended to hurt someone's feelings deeply or was it used to properly portrait your thoughts, feelings and the like? There is a qualitative difference here. Was there Malice, forethought and intent to harm or was there a sincere attempt to convey an thought that was best done with such terms. Was it used to describe how some other party might say something and so the realism of the matter was of importance? Many doctors here have used the word A-hole to describe certain patients or insurance carriers. Was such use inaccurate or just a sharing of a common experience among what is hopefully "friends" here? Venting and blowing off steam in a "safe" place? Is this still a safe place for such sharing of common experiences?

But even though I may have been the target of one or two "bombs" of late, as I have told Bert as he appologies to me too often, that I really am a Kid from the Bronx, who really is a Hockey Ref and you are going to have to go a heck of a lot further, to really get under my skin and truely "offend" me. Do we all really need protection from such things?

But let's talk about what is offensive. I feel that frequently many people do horrible things, some we have discussed here in these pages, and although they are said in pleasant tones of voice with, polite language, still there intent or the trickery or use of unfair advantage is far more offensive than any "F-Bomb" or other supposedly foul words my blue collar mouth can come up with. Think about how UHC or CIGNA treats us every day and the policies they use and enforce. This blantant abuse of power that harms both patients and doctors should be discussed in a "civil" manor? I say not! I refuse to play ball in there park by their rules and instead bring the discussion back to what is the "right" thing to do, not what they are manipulated and distorted things into. I get indignant and I get heated as I discuss denying women their wellcare to screen to breast and cervical cancer. This monster has haunted my very family on both sides, and may still one day claim my still pre-pubescent daughter who I love with all my heart. I don't fight in Orwellian insuranse carrier terms, I fight in terms of what is the human and descent thing to do. Now denying care and preventive screenings that is more offensive and more people need to get "Network" like "Mad as hell and not take it anymore".

Now let's think about images that one may deem offensive. I personally think the human body is one of the most beautiful things every designed, but that is my opinion. Let's list a bunch of images that all contain the human body. Again I appologies ahead of time. Are annorexic runway models part or fully clothed offensive? Are naked pictures of the human body in an anatomy book whether for kids in traditional school or in a more Medical School like setting offensive? Is showing a man and women making true loving and passionate sex offensive? Showing the same in a more animal urge and instinct type of fashion more of less offensive? Is depicting a violent act of sex offensive and does it matter if it is done to properly show the real state of current human relations and shed light on this awful situation vereses having it in a traditional pornography type peice of film or video? Art movies verses porn might we say? Is any of this more or less offensive than watching traditional gets by the movie raters everyday, blow 'em up, shoot 'em up, Hollywood type movies that teach our children goodness knows what and can give young childern and grown ups alike real nighmares?

Just the mention of Darth Vader's name, image or voice (James Earl Jones for goodness sake! Mufasa! Simba's daddy) scares my 8 year old daughter to death right now. Even my son who likes Star Wars and Spiderman and the like was getting nightmares from this stuff and so now it's just off limits until they get older. Nancy and I were just watching "300" last night about the Spartans holding off the hordes. What is more offensive, all the blood, arms, limbs and heads flying off in every which direction or the one or two sceens of women's breast and people making love or having "not so nice sex" and which would you rather have your 12 year old watching and learning from? And should they be watching such things alone or with a parent to explain and teach from it? And is it any other person's place to say or limit what I choose to share with or teach my children? Althought we have the usual clamps in place until they get significantly older. There is no X-Box in our house and we will hold off on this as long as we can even if Daddy does really want EA Sports NHL Hockey. It's just not worth it.

In the end I see senorship as really a mirror back on the person doing the sensoring. It is a window into how they view the world around them and what are their true morals are or intent. But in my America, our America all comers have the right to their peice even if it hurts or is offensive to someone. Almost anything can be seen as offensive to someone, even Bugs Bunny, Tom and Gerry, Rockie and Bullwinkle anyone, right? No less some of the newer, less cerebrial cartoons, but that "value judgement" is but my opinion, and not everybody else's.

The best way to stop or limit someone's negative speech is to use one of the following technics: Ignore it out right and not to hype it up, refute it with strong and proper evidence, turn them off or change the channel, start your own article or show. But we in our society need to get back to a more "Live and Let Live" as opposed to a "Live and Let Die" mentality. But lastly every now and again things get heated and hackles get roughed up, but the free and open exchange of ideas needs to be maintained and protected.

Now,Obviously we here on this board should try and maintain a certain level of courtesy when possible. We are sort of friends if not like a family. But even families have their moments and sometimes airing things out really is the best "medicine". But I think if we keep honesty and intention as our driving principles, then there really should be no need for any form of real sensorship.

Thanks for "listening" and sharing in the free exchange of ideas everyone, but you can always change the channel if you really want or feel the need to do; right? Bert I know you always like my "Be Well" as my sign off, but lately as I am paying more attention to the political debate heating up around the country that in this instance as I stand here defending one of our (I hope) most cherished liberties, I feel that the sign off of Edward R. Murrow's, now used every night by Keith Olberman on MSNBC is much more appropriate for this post:
"Good Night, and Good Luck".
Paul

Paul,

I appreciate your honesty and sharing your information about your daughter. That has to be hard. Freedom of speech does allow someone the right to say most things and not be persecuted by the government, but there still are restraints. One certainly can't go onto the medicine or pediatrics floors in the hospital and make derogatory comments about others. Sure, they have the right to say it, but they will also suffer the consequences.

I recall an interesting story once about four to five years ago. I inherited a patient who was shooting up heroin and taking cocaine. She needed methadone, but since she was only 17 years of age, she was unable to be admitted into our local psychiatric hosptial where she could be treated. She needed it so I prescribed it for her. The hospital for adults called me and said that they were the only ones who could prescribe it in this area and I would need to stop. The hospital attorney told them she needed it and she would get it in his hospital unless they would admit her and give it.

I would go in twice a day, once in the AM and then again in the PM. The AM was for rounds and adjusting her Klonopin and methadone dosing. The PM rounds was for sitting and talking and gaining her trust. The conversations were about anything and everything.

One day the case manager told me that since she was Medicaid she would have to leave that night. I refused to discharge her. As we were talking that night, I told her I didn't care what the f___ the hospital or Mainecare said, but I was going to treat her there unless they could get her into a group home.

A nurse who is no longer at the hospital, went in that night and the patient told her how she liked how I stood up for her and quoted me about what I had said. The following day, I found a nursing note describing the entire incident, the language I had used, how inappopriate it was, etc. I was confronted by the Chief of Pediatrics and reprimanded and had the entire thing put in my record. I spoke with the nurse who refused to talk to me and the charge nurse told me she was obligated to chart everything.

Finally, I contacted the COO of the hospital who is simply a very logical person and a great person. He spoke with the nurse, the charge nurse and the Chief of Pediatrics and rescinded my reprimand in my chart. He did tell me that he probably would be careful with the language I used even though he has used it himself. Of course, I just went with it.

I get such a kick out of the censored thing for the word a*s, I just have to include it. I have thought about adding other words to see which ones are allowed, but I am scared it would take it, and I wouldn't be able to edit it quickly enough.

Bert,
IMO, your only mistake was that you let your human, caring side show through. I, for one, do not condone indescriminate cursing but, I certainly can curse with the best of them when it fits the situation.
The problem with our society today boils down to "politcal correctness". I cannot help but believe a few "do-gooders" and a whole lot of lawyers and media moguls are ruining this country. We are all being forced to squeeze into a single mold. Our individualisms, cultures, ethnicities are all being whittled away for the good of....what? We are pressured not to offend anyone and consequently, we no longer look at people or listen to them because we are so afraid we will say something back which may raise their hackles or those of the late night TV barristers. Even you New Englanders have lost your accents. You all now sound like the rest of us all here in the Midwest. Personally I think it is sad. As a fat female medical student in the early 80's, I must honestly say it was the jeers and whispers I heard behind my back that fueled my quest to prove I was not a slovenly, lazy, stupid blond "gotta fill our female quota" student. And I did. But, one of the reasons is my parents taught me that, rather than take offense to offensive verbage, work harder to defend myself and my beliefs, appearance, sex, religion, talents, etc. Today's kids only know how to tattle, run home to momma, or hide behind their computer screens and then let the lawyers fight their battles. Just my old foggy attitudes coming out I suppose. I guess I should apologize to all of you whom I may have offended by my rant.....but I won't.

Leslie

Interesting discussion, folks. Just so you know, the censorship is built into the board, has been there for years, but knowing this software, was probably broken before the last update... either that or the elves have too much time on their hands again, so they're editing the posts.

Roy, using abbreviations which have been used in medicine for something like 500 years in a modern hospital is now illegal in most states, and the Hospital Bad Abbreviation Police (H-BAP) is at this very moment on their way to haul you away to the Joint Commission secret re-education camp.. where they're going to repeat over and over at you until you confess your sins and repent that "Pain is the fifth vital sign!"

Seriously, when they outlawed the standard medical abbreviations, I threatened to write all of my orders in Apothicary units. (Anybody remember how many CC's are in a Drachm? The reason aspirin is 81mg is that's one GRAIN. I can dispense fluids in minims.. the nurses will LOVE that).

<sigh> been awake WAAAaay too long.. today was almost like residency (only without the lectures to fall asleep in or the easy paycheck)

Be well, people. If the censorship is more offensive than the words censored, I'll try to turn it off.

V.

Vinny and Leslie,
Thanks both for amusing stories. FYI, I just posted a better version of "The Viper" for anyone who is interested.

But I have a question. Is there not now a new clause somewhere in all the new printed mumbo-jumbo, about getting in trouble here on this board if we are deemed offensive or to be making negative comments against the product or those related to it? I think that the auto senors combined with such things was what originally got Bert's goat and why I then chimed-in, in his support. We were just concerned that real "Free Speech" whether positive or negative was going to supported and defended here on this board. From what I can see most AC users are small or solo practices, who have by choice gone against conventional wisdom of "large factory medicine" and are mostly free thinkers and speakers; and so such restrictions might be met with a certain amount of resistance.

That is why I wrote about all the forms of "what is offensive". Are words or actions more offensive? Also I believe if I read him correctly, Bert was also concerned about certain forms of double standards that have already occurred as it relates to being allowed or not allowed to post. It wasn't just an exercise in Civics and Constitutional Law, or to stand against the present administration that has just about done away with our rights to "warrented searches" and "habius Corpus". Although that is extremely upsetting as well, and I do personally believe that all citizens of good conscience should stand up against such things until our rights are once again secure as intended by our forefathers.

So was there a misunderstanding here or is this now the "law" of this board? Thanks for the clarification.

--> Leslie, very well put. Awesome post.

--> Vinny, I thought the O2 sat was the 5th vital sign. <G> It always kills me when a medical student tells me that the patient doesn't need oxygen, because they are at 95%, when their HR is 150 (peds) and their RR is 40

--> Paul, once again, great post and appreciation for reading between the lines and saying what we or at least speaking for myself I am saying. I still don't understand why a*s gets censored and a*shole does not. lol.

This is just a test of the censorship broadcasting system. If this was an actual obscenity...

J ackass = jackass
A ss = [censored]
S hit = [censored]
As shole = asshole
At torney= attorney

I figure whatever is not censored would be OK to use.

Roy, Bert and the Gang,

"Good Night and Good Luck"

Roy,

I think you got it wrong up there. Attorney = Asshole

Apologies to anyone whose spouse or son or daughter or sibling is a lawyer. Just having fun.