Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Messages Still Disappearing

I'm still deleting the wrong messages in AC. It is refreshing the messages in the background, but the message you think you are deleting is NOT what is being deleted. I'm deleting VERY IMPORTANT messages unless I pay very close attention. Messages like "call this patient because the biopsy came back cancer" when I think I'm deleted a cosign notification. This needs to be fixed ASAP. Hopefully others will voice their concerns with AC, since this is an important patient safety issue AC CREATED!

And of course, thanks Bert! You're the best!

David Lee, MD
IM
Dallas, TX

The latest AC version is 10.1.16. I've posted a few times but no one can answer on whether this version corrected the Message Box bug. I'm tired of spending several unproductive hours updating, only to find out the bug is still there.

I updated to 10.1.6 I do not have any message box issue but an old bug popped up on only 1 client computer- when clicking on the "Write Scripts" box in a patients chart AC randomly shuts completely down the entire program!
This only happens on 1 client computer not the other 2 so it must be something about that unit. Funny it happened a few versions ago on the same computer then went away with newer versions.
Good luck John.

I updating to 10.2 Friday and can report back next week.

David Lee, MD
IM
Dallas, TX

await 10.2 report thanks

Thanks DrLee.

I too would like to know how this turns out

just a test message for DrLee to see if he gets email notice.

No did not get email. Weird I did on first few posts. Updating AC today, and I'll report back next week.

David Lee, MD
IM
Dallas, TX

Did you check your spam/junk folders?

WTF AC! It is STILL not fixed in version 10.2. I don't think they even know what the problem is. AC if you are viewing this thread, I am happy to demonstrate. I just deleted a co-sign notification, but what actually got deleted was an important reminder I needed. PLEASE FIX ASAP!

David Lee, MD
IM
Dallas, TX

ARggh!

AC officials ( paging Chris) this is why the board can help you. Engage us, let us show you the problem. Put out the fires with your best team it's not a waste of resources.

Every exasperated poster here probably has 25 exasperated silent users suffering the same issue.

It's like Windows 10 we need daily reliability more than new features.

It is unlikely that anyone from AC is monitoring this board. They may not even know that it exists. Contacting them directly is the appropriate course at this point, if you want a response from them.

Having said that, it would be helpful for others to weigh-in. Is anyone experiencing the issues with messages that David describes?

PLEASE try to describe your problem in detail, so we can tell if others are experiencing it. Maybe use screenshots.


I have emailed Chris Conrad about issues I have had with reminders showing in the wrong place in the message list, and minor message issues (different, I believe, from what David describes). His most recent reply, about a month ago was "10.1.6 resolved all the priority issues that impact you most. There were a few others minor ones we’ve addressed in 10.2 currently in beta scheduled to GA in a few weeks. One of them is related to reminders not showing up in the Outbox. Only 1 user reported that as a problem over the last 4 months so it’s not a very common workflow."

I know for a fact that this is not true. I have reported this problem, and I was told by tech support agent at that time (months ago) that there had been many reports of the Message Box bug. In addition, a beta tester wrote on the (deceased) Board that AC developers had been told during beta testing for version 10.1 that this bug was noted.

Being caught lying to your customers was one feature of the AC Users Board that they sure won't miss.

I have a slightly different but related issue.

I go to open a chart and it starts to open and then effectively shuts down. I then have to go to the deleted folder to pull it back. I suspect if I get a new email when I'm opening one this may happen. It might be the same cause.

I asked Chris about it sometime ago but he said he had not seen it although I've reported it a number of times

What I think is going on, on the main message page, there is background refresh of the messages. But since we have a busy practice and things are being added constantly, unless you immediately refresh before acting on a message, even though it looks like you are deleting/responding/saving to one message, AC has already refreshed in the background, so what they think you are deleting/responding to is a COMPLETELY different message. They just need to turn OFF background message refreshing until this is fixed. I can refresh messages myself. But the message I'm looking at should be the same message you're taking action on in the background AC.

David Lee, MD
IM
Dallas, TX

AC has talked about automatic refreshing of messages for a long time. I was not aware it has been incorporated. I think it is an ok idea; some people were really excited about it.

What versions have this? I know it is not in 10.0.2.



And John, this is not to argue with you or to agree with Chris, but I am not at all sure we are all talking about the same thing. You refer to "THE message box bug". Which one exactly is that?

Jon, What I am reporting is the same as Dr Lee. When a message is forwarded or saved, it does not vanish from the message box, but stays on the list. Subsequently clicking on that message shows the text of the next patient's message, making it possible to record a reply ON THE WRONG PATIENT, or erase a message that needs a response.

Here's a few other descriptions of this issue:
https://acusersforum.com/ub/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=74136#Post74136
https://acusersforum.com/ub/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=74123
https://acusersforum.com/ub/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=73927#Post73927
https://acusersforum.com/ub/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=73921

I think Dr Lee may be on to the cause of the bug in his post above. This message box error appeared when version 10.1 was introduced; a promised update was "auto-refresh" of the message box. Before 10.1, the message box had to be refreshed manually to see new messages and erase old messages. Something went wrong with the "auto-refresh" update.

Another difficult bug that hasn't been fixed is the "Run-time error '5' - Invalid procedure call or argument" bug (usually occurs when changing from Outbox to Inbox), causing AC to crash & require restart.

It is interesting that you brought this up. I have wanted to talk about this auto-refresh thing for a while, but never got around to it. But, now is a good time.

In the past, the inbox never auto-refreshed. You had to do it manually. I swear they changed this somewhere back in 7 or 8. Because, I remember how great it was that it did this. As it should.

As John says, auto-refresh of messages was promised for some years. I believe I first heard about it at a CAB meeting in Boston, I think in 2016.
It has never been a feature until recently (for better or worse).
We do not have it on 10.0.2, so I believe John when he says it started with 10.1

On the other hand, we have had some different, minor message box issues since we went to V10.
Our plan has been to stay with 10.0.2 until it is clear that the issues discussed above by John and David are resolved.
Apparently they have not been dealt with.

We actually did add a message box refresh back in v10 as a byproduct of the automated lab import function...there is a service that runs every 15 minutes that refreshes your mailbox with any new results. It was intended for results and hence the 15 minutes, but this can be reconfigured to run at any frequency you like...Support has to change it in the database until we add it to the options for you to do yourself. Ideally it would be every minute or so for messages.

As far the message forward and save still appearing in the inbox..We cannot replicate this in house and believe me I've tried. When you forward a message you should be receiving a pop up message that asks you if you want to delete the message from your inbox. You respond accordingly. I can't see a way to turn that off but if you're not getting that prompt then that would certainly explain why you're still seeing them in your inbox. Please let me know if you do not see this prompt...... There is no option on Save..once you save it's gone.

As far as the refresh...Each users inbox is refreshed immediately after you invoke an action, at least in 10.1.6 and above..I hesitate to say what happens previously without validating it first. Hence you would never see a message that was deleted remain until the refresh occurred. We updated that logic in 10.1.6/10.2 to ensure it's working properly and so far no complaints.

No one at AC is assigned to monitor this new board but I'll gladly drop in once is a while and reply at times..Many of you already know how to reach me personally and I reply to those daily. As always, your best route to get an answer is to contact support and get a tech to triage it for you...and it becomes a matter of record once it can be replicated and gets assigned to dev as a bug. There are no open bugs related to messages that are similar to what's being described here. I'm not implying your issue is not legit, but environments vary and can make it difficult to replicate.


I like the look of your new board!

Chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the information and glad that you are on board!

Gene

Ryanjo...as always it's a pleasure reading your posts...Maybe a little consideration that the subject of these message issues could be confusing and maybe there's some overlap.

OK....Dr. Lee was able to replicate this with Support, as was I in-house, and it is indeed the auto-refresh in the background. Thanks Dr. Lee !!!!

For now, if you're clicking the refresh button the issues are mitigated until we determine the best manner to address this in the next release.

Chris

Thanks Chris. We worked hard on it. Everyone looks forward to discussing AC, its issues, along with many positive comments. We are also happy to have your help as well as any support staff's input as well. It is in everyone's best interest that Amazing Charts continues to thrive and improve.

PS The ACUF's Board of Directors would like to offer AC and the Harris Company an ad we would post on the home page which pointed to AC's site.

I have further clarity on the message refresh functionality. The results refresh byproduct I describe above is correct but that is server based only to process your lab results but refreshes only the email grid on the server itself. A separate service was added back in version 10 specifically to refresh your individual mailboxes on each workstation. It's hard coded to run every 15 minutes and is not editable in the current version. It serves a purpose but obviously with a 15 minute interval it certainly won't keep your inbox current and hence the need to manually refresh until we can decide on a more appropriate solution that will not have a negative impact elsewhere; Some practices have enormous inboxes and constant refreshes can be a drain on performance. Manual refreshes keep this to a minimum controlled by the user on an as-needed basis. Not an easy nut to crack given the current architecture.

So if I understand that correctly...

The auto-refresh on each workstation mailbox now refreshes every 15 minutes.

In all prior versions, there was no auto refresh, BUT if you send a message, that would initiate a refresh, right?

What David and John describe is sending a message, but it does not immediately disappear from the inbox. It requires a manual refresh to clear it out.

Is that correct? If so, the problem is not really the new, auto-refresh capability... it is a malfunction of the way things refreshed in the past.

Does that sound right?

I've asked dev to confirm exactly when we added the 15 minute refresh but it could go all the way back to version 9.0. It's the new email grid we did in 10.1 that could have exposed these issues.

Whenever you initiate an action (New, forward, reply, delete etc the box refreshes upon completion of the action). We have not been able to replicate the delete/forward/save issue where the message remains in the grid until refreshed. When you forward a message you are prompted whether you want to keep or remove the message from your inbox. I asked above if users are seeing this prompt when they forward. Depending upon the answer the message could remain. If you don't see the prompt the message could remain but you should see the prompt every time. Is it possible that those reporting this are seeing the byproduct of the refresh bug...If you think you're forwarding/deleting the highlighted message but in reality it's the message in context then it will appear to remain even after a refresh.

When I say " in context" i mean the message that is currently displaying in the bottom. Some of this confusion is attributed to how we highlight the message in the grid. try this.....
1. Click on any message in the grid to highlight it..note that the message is now in context.
2. Now click on the Messages button (not refresh)
3. The message at the bottom of the grid is highlighted, but the prior message you clicked on is still in context. The message in context is the active message. Any action taken such as forward, delete etc. is for this message, not the one that is highlighted. Clicking the Message button is not the same as the refresh but users may assume it is , understandably.
4. Now hit refresh and you'll see them in synch.

The bug around this refresh related delete issue can be mitigated by ensuring that the action you take is intended for the message in context and not the one highlighted due to the automated refresh, at least for now until we can address this. This email grid is extremely complex and there are an enormous number of use cases we need to solve simultaneously for everyone. Ideally if the refresh did not highlight anything and we forced you to click on a message that would simplify things but the effort to do that is significant and may be ultimate resolution. I know it sounds as simple as changing a light bulb. However put that light bulb on top of a 1000 foot cell tower. Dev is looking onto the best way to resolve this and we plan to keep the highlight.

Chris,
I do not know if this helps, but here is how my message box is working (I am on V10.0.2):

1. In response to: "When you forward a message you are prompted whether you want to keep or remove the message from your inbox. I asked above if users are seeing this prompt when they forward".... the answer is yes. Every time.

2. I followed your steps, 1-4 above. When I get to step 3, yes, the message at the bottom of the grid is highlighted. But NO, the prior message is NOT still in context. If I forward, etc... the highlighted message is the one that is forwarded.

There are three other message box problems I have shared with you in the past. I hate to complicate things, but perhaps bringing them up here will somehow facilitate a solution.

a. In V10, I find that messages in the box often do not display. Sometimes they show up after a few seconds, and sometimes the only way to see them is to change focus (e.g., click on another message and come back to the one I want to see).

b. Sending a message to myself: I often send a message to the staff and cc myself. I then save the message I sent to myself (with instructions to the staff) to the patient's chart. This has always worked well until V10. Now the message I send to myself is blank. The version of the message sent to staff appears appropriately. I can see that the one to myself is blank in the message box, and of course when it is saved, there is no content.

c. Reminders out of order: When a reminder shows up in my message box, it is out of order. If there are many messages in the box, the reminder might not even appear until I scroll backwards, and so it is easily missed. (For example, there might be 10 messages with yesterday's date; a reminder for today shows up PRIOR TO those messages).

I would be happy to show screenshots of these, but I cannot figure out how to do it on the new forum.


I have been saying all along "the message problem" is not just one problem, but several. This lengthy post explains why I say that. My current version (10.0.2) is AFTER the refresh change made in V9 and before the one made later in V10; maybe that will help to identify the genesis of the issues.

Hi Jon,

Thank You for your time responding in detail. Regarding #2 above where you replicated the workflow I described. This particular issue was introduced in 10.1 and persists today so you wouldn't experience it on 10. I'm not sure if I mentioned this before but the email grid was completely re-written in a different programming language for 10.1 to address performance issues. Unfortunately we introduced that defects which were subsequently addressed in multiple patch releases up through 10.1.6. The 3 issues you describe above experiencing on version 10 were all corrected by version 10.2. See below for complete list from the release notes.


10.1.6 Correct Message defects:

- Numerous Message refresh issues where the email grid was not being refreshed when:
After saving an email (AC-13408)
After Deleting Lab Order while saving to Chart (AC-13407)
After deleting a forwarded message (AC-13396)

- Delete Multiple Messages – can’t sort by column headers (AC-13363)

- "Run-Time Error 5” when switch from Group boxes back to Messages (AC-13418)

- Saving Message from Group Box may cause system failure(AC-13406)

- Users may experience delays when opening messages or navigating between different inboxes. At times it may seem messages may be missing.
This is more conspicuous if you have a large volume of messages (AC-13354, AC-13255)

- Delete Key not working when used to delete messages (AC-13409, AC-13397))



10.2 Correct Message Defects:

- Reminders appearing in the Inbox immediately and not on the date assigned. (AC-134600)

- When deleting multiple emails the order is inverted with most recent at the top and oldest at the bottom. (AC- 13381)

- Reminders are not appearing in the Outbox (AC-13473)

- Deleting a message, the grid refreshes and focus is on the last message in the grid. It should delete the message and focus on one below. (AC-13474)

- Email grid refresh setting focus on improper message when using Check In/Check Out. (AC-13380)

I was able to capture a screen video and AC is on it! At least my issue, which again is the message I am viewing to delete is NOT the one that gets deleted. It was indeed an auto refresh issue where what was on the screen did NOT match what AC was seeing/deleting behind the screen. It has been escalated and will be fixed soon. Shout out to Clayton at AC for all his help!

David Lee, MD
IM
Dallas, TX