Home Forums AC on it's own server?

Did you share the folder? Did you open port 61067? (The port thing is hit and miss. It automatically opens on some windows installations but not others. I think on the later versions it doesn't open automatically. Probably a new security feature.)

Check out part 3 of the SBS Essentials tutorial.

Oh, I thought you meant the other computers. But, you meant the two. Hell, turn off all the firewalls. And uninstall Norton or McAfee.

Also make sure the .xml files match.

I think that's a great idea. Get a couple 128GB Crucial M4 for $100 each today this weekend. RAID 1. No point in any higher RAID level. They will be roaring ha. Maybe a RAID 1 of 1TB drives for storage (which you can add later) and the 128GB for SBS and AC? Essentials needs about 60-80GB. The hybrid setup is pretty cost effective. Cheap mechanical storage with very fast flash-based loading.

Remember since it's less than 160GB you'll have to do a little tweaking.

http://connecteddigitalworld.com/20...-or-sata-hard-drives-smaller-than-160gb/

That'll also automate the entire install for you. So you can start it and not have to enter anything during the install process.

Yes, the answer file. Good call Sandeep. I was suggesting 256 just for the 160 limit. Didn't see that article.

Thanks. Makes it a lot easier when you can just start it and come back later. You can even set up the partitioning in advance.

By the time you start, just have to run the wizards and install AC.

Personally, I would go with five 1TB drives with a RAID 5. You will have 4TBs. The other way on 2TBs. Then a hot spare. Or 2 X 2 TB in a mirror for 2TBs total with a hot spare. Sandeep will disagree on the first.

Tom, Do you use Microsoft literature to learn Word? No you play with it. Microsoft's articles are a bit up there. I tend to use TechNet. BUT, AND NO ONE BELIEVES ME, BUT TRAIN SIGNAL IS THE BEST WAY TO GO. BY FAR.

Never used SSDs on a server, so I don't know how fast it would be for SQL. You could email Raja and ask him. He would know. My desktops are smoking fast and reboot in 9 seconds to 14.3 seconds.

I wouldn't look at your regular hardware as internal backups. There are advantages, but remember you have to have external storage. While other backup software does this, get a load of this:

Backup Assist will back up to your internal drive, then move that backup to an external or NAS drive. It leaves as many as you want. I leave three. Definitely quicker to restore or grab a file.

But, you are going to want to put things on other hard drives which don't require speed so you don't take up the SSDs/OS. You want that for the system drive and data only.

Tom,

I know this is overwhelming. I would copy and paste and edit them so you can use them better. These aren't from the web, they are from those who have done it. Me, probably ten server setups, Sandeep about 100. Pretty soon - Hyper-V.

PLEASE USE THE WIZARDS.

PLEASE TRY NOT TO GO BACK AND FORTH. YOU NEED ALL THREE COMPUTERS ON THE SAME NETWORK

REMEMBER, IF THERE IS AN ISSUE, IT IS ALWAYS DNS, DNS, DNS, DNS...

I hope you don't need those computers for work. If so, try to get sandbox computers.

If you can't connect, I go against the port (although Sandeep may be on to something. Tell me no McAfee and No Norton. If there is, UNINSTALL THEM, DELETE THEM, TRASH THEM. Next go to the .xml files. I will bet there.

Remember when you think about the 128, if you go with 20GB of RAM, you will need a 30GB page file. That will take up quite a bit of space. Now, you can move that file to the other drive, and the nice thing is it will work better.

Finally, for now:

This is a great example of the P2P vs client/server (domain -- as you saw). Three things:

1. Peer-to-peer is just fine. AC works fine and you don't spend as much time tweaking it.

2. Client server gives you way more options and has many benefits, but NOT needed for AC.

3. Where client/server IS needed is for someone who wants to take advantage of the benefits of a domain (at the expense of some increased technicalities) BUT wants to have fun with a client/server. Tom is just such a person.

I love my quote of my tech friend who helps me tremendously. He is an MCITP for over 30 years. I asked him for advice on a P2P whether written or actual hands on. He told me he couldn't do it. I said, "Why?" He told me, "Because P2Ps are way too hard to work on.

Having said that, I completely understand that want to stay with P2Ps. I used one myself for 4 1/2 years. And, full disclosure, we had a Dell server with Windows Server 2000, but we weren't on a domain. Everyone logged into their own computer and never authenticated against the server, no Active Directory, no DHCP, no DNS, no SharePoint, no Exchange, no central antivirus, no central firewall, no central routing of email, etc., but it worked great.

One of the benefit of the wizards is setting up shares. Althogh, a lot of people will tell you otherwise, bypass the Share by using Everyone and that is all. Then use the NTFS permissions to enter domain users. But, first get it shared. One way to tell it to do this with a folder, enter a text file and add something like Test and save it in the folder.

Then access the folder from a client, open the folder, open the text file, open the text file (with something written in it), change the word in it, save it, then delete the text file and delete the folder. If you can do these things, you then have read/write/modify, all you need to get to AC.

By the way, it is easy to share printers. Always install the printer using the driver for the SERVER. Once it is set up, you just browse to the folder. Make sure it has List In Directory set up. If the computer you are trying to share it to, does not use the same drive, e.g. 32-bit driver, you will need to download that driver on the server and add it.

Disclaimer: RAID is at the hardware level and has nothing to do with a server. You don't need RAID for a server to work. These same considerations should be taken into account regardless if you choose Windows 7 or Small Business Server 2011 Standard with Premium Add-On.

That would give you a 3TB usable capacity not 4TB. With the 5 drives in RAID 5, you'll need an 8 Port RAID Card since they're made in increments of 4. $530 RAID Card + 5 x 1TB RE4 (5 x $120) = $1130 just for the drives and card. Probably better go with 3 drives in RAID 5 and a hot spare. You would get way way more speed with the SSD+HDD Hybrid.

You don't really need hot spares for RAID 1 and RAID 10. The rebuild time is much faster compared to a RAID 5 since there are heavy parity calculations involved in RAID 5. So I'd probably go with a 4 Drive RAID 10 with cold spare on a 4 port RAID controller ($330) or a RAID 1 with a cold spare. This is SBS Essentials which doesn't have very high requirements.

I think the best would be a double RAID 1. RAID 1 Crucial M4 + RAID 1 1 or 2TB Drives depending on need. I've only filled about 100GB of Data in the past 10 years at the office.

Pricing (According to a ~1TB Capacity):

• 1 TB Hard Drive = No RAID = $120 (Average, no speed boost or redundancy)
• 2 x 1TB RAID 1 = $200 RAID Card (2 Port Dedicated RAID Card) + $240 2 x 1TB Drives = $540 (Basic, bear in mind this is more than enough for Essentials)
• 4 x 500GB RAID 5 (w/Hot Spare) = $330 (4 Port Dedicated RAID Card) + $400 4 x 500GB = $730 (Fast, 1 TB Usable)
• 4 x 500GB RAID 10 = $330 RAID Card (4 Port Dedicated RAID Card) + $400 4 x 500GB = $730 (Very Fast, 1TB Usable)
• 128GB x RAID 1 + 1TB x RAID1 = $330 RAID Card (4 port Dedicated RAID Card) + $200 (RAID 1, Crucial M4) + $240 (RAID 1, 1TB WD RE4) = $770 (Insanely fast- you would need 10 hard drives to compete with these SSDs, 1.128GB Usable)
• 5 x 500GB RE4 RAID 5 (w/Hot Spare) = $530 RAID Card (8 port Dedicated RAID Card) + $500 5 x 500GB = $1130 (Very Fast, 1.5TB)

Obviously, adjust according to your storage needs. Personally I think 1TB is enough. We have yet to fill up 100GB so 1TB (1000GB) is more than enough.

My choice: I'd go with the basic RAID 1 (2 X 1TB) since it's Essentials. If not, the double RAID 1 with the 2 SSDs and 2 Hard Drives.
I personally have the 4 Drive RAID 10 because when I bought my server. 128GB SSDs were $300-$400 each and 500GB Hard Drives were only $80. If I had this pricing now I would definitely get the SSD+HDD combo.

Or one really good one and use VMWare workstation.


When I did a fresh install of SBS 2011 Essentials, it happened. Nothing on there besides AC. So that's why I think it's the port. You usually get an error message about the port though. Happened on Windows 7 SP1 too.

Fascinating, gentlemen.

I now have everything working -- "server" is a T61P, client 1 is T60 WinXP and client 2 is X200T Win7Pro. Thanks for all the suggestions.

I turned off the firewall and used a different router -- maybe something with DNS in the router? Anyway, it's working. I still don't understand the "server" -- do the IP addresses come from the router or the server? Of course, this is a test system, I can work on the firewall issues.

I discovered that going from the domain back to the workgroup, then back again to the domain is a mistake -- possible, but clumsy. I don't need the X200 at the office -- I use it at home and on the road, and I can still remote desktop to the office computers with it on the domain, so it doesn't matter. But I guess there is no easy way to use the same machine in my test domain, and then take it to the office to do work (except remote desktop, in a pinch).

Oddly enough, this setup is objectively slower than my office system with a 32 bit, dual core, 2GB server and a strung together network of way too many switches and wireless access points. I would expect it to be faster. I'll have to work on that some more.

I still haven't figured out remote access -- but I have done enough for now.

The Raid stuff is interesting-- seems like anything more than RAID 1 is overkill. This is a single doctor office -- not a program trading shop!

Anyway, this whole exercise has been very instructive. As Sandeep points out, you can't use Microsoft manuals to figure anything out -- mostly it's just hands on and trial and error. I don't quite understand why it has to be that way. It's what drives my wife (and all my non-tech nerd friends) crazy about computers. And the principal reason why only one of the two of us is ever going to use an EMR.

I will say, the Server/Client system seems intuitively cleaner, and with the wizards, it doesn't seem to be difficult to set up.
I can't imagine why I would ever go with the more complex server setups, though.

As for Exchange -- I never use email with patients. It would set me up to be inundated with trivial and annoying questions, and create the expectation of an immediate reply -- for free! I may eventually get around to using the UpDox portal to report out lab results, and the like -- but they will be calling anyway, wanting more explanation, or further tests they read about on the Internet.... so it seems sort of pointless. Life is too short. All communication with patients outside the exam room goes through my nurse.

Now to bed. 5:00 comes pretty soon!

Tom

Well not many people leave and rejoin domains daily lol. There's a reason you have to restart. Windows has to switch between group policy (from the server) and local policy everytime you switch around.
It's usually you're on a domain or on a workgroup.

That was Bert that pointed it out ha. They do make stuff very technical when it in fact pretty simple. But that's true for most things in life. Like anything, once you have the fundamentals down, it's smooth sailing after that. Another upside for them is they get to charge for support.

You're right, there is not much benefit in a single doctor office. Unless you want more speed. Speed is the main reason. The benefits start increasing when you're a single doctor with 2 offices or a multi-provider office.

A single RAID 1 array becomes insufficient to support 10 simultaneous users. Everyone starts feeling slower. RAID 10 is faster. Use that instead. It all depends on how many people you have/how many computers you have. It can get crazy depending on the I/O profile.

Sometimes I get crazy messages about setting up servers with 8 providers and/or 3 remote locations. They (IT Consultants) expect a response in minutes too lol. I think it's kind of funny. They're getting paid to consult and come up with a solution. Then they ask me for the answer.

Desktop vs Laptop? I'm guessing. Not really a comparison. Desktop processors are much faster. How much RAM do you have on the T61P? You'll want 4-8GB on an SBS 2011 Essentials Production Server.

I hate wireless. Basically use it for internet access. Never for file sharing or db access.

5 minus 1 = 4


If you have a server ALWAYS use DHCP with it. NEVER use DHCP from the router and NEVER, EVER have them both on. I am very sure it was your firewall.


Tom, I hope you understand that RAID efficiency and how good it is has nothing to do with the number. 100 people will give you 100 different RAID setups, but RAID5 will not get you closer to a program trading shop.

I NEVER USE ALL CAPS, BUT I HAVE TO HERE. PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE EMAIL ON YOUR COMPUTER!! Are you saying you do not have email? I can't believe that.

IF SO I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW YOU WOULD BE AT ANY MORE RISK FROM YOUR PATIENTS' EMAILS WITH EXCHANGE THAN FROM YOUR EMAIL.

Please answer this. It is driving me crazy! Do you have email on your computer?

5-1(hot spare)-1(parity) = 3TB. Hot spare drive is not being used for parity. Hot spare does not count towards the capacity. One drive is used for parity data. Leaving you with 3TB. Still more capacity than a RAID 10, 2TB Usable. But slower writes. This is called RAID 5E.

Unless you mean 5 drives and a hot spare (6 drives total)?! 6 Drives is pretty pricey. Way too much for Essentials. Lol. That being said, I'd still go for a 6 Drive RAID 10 over 5 Drive RAID 5 with a hot spare. With SSDs in the mix, no need to get so many hard drives. If it's for storage, better to get higher capacity drives. 4TB Drives are out.

For some reason, I don't know why. I just don't like RAID 5. It's either RAID 1 or RAID 10 for me.
In terms of reliability (in my experience): RAID 10 > RAID 1 > RAID 5, this seems to be the trend for other people as well. I think that follows with the MTTDL model. To Everyone: RAID anything except 0 is better than a stand-alone drive.

Just a note. This is not enabled by default. You will have to add the role in Essentials. I can't remember who, but someone PM'ed me about their network not working when they disabled the DHCP server on their router. It's confusing because in Standard, the DHCP role is auto-configured. In Essentials, you have to add it.

Essentials does not have this role installed by default. You can enable it. Check part 5 of the series. Just don't forget to disable the one on your router as Bert indicated earlier.

Sandeep,

LOL. I'm not that dumb. 5 drives - 1 drive for parity = 4 drives for data, THEN add a hot spare. If I don't know that a hot spare can't hold data, I shouldn't have a server.

Lol. My bad. Just thought 6 drives were overkill ha.

RAID 5 does not use one drive for parity. The parity stripe is across all drives.

JamesNT

True. I guess the more appropriate response is that parity data consumes a capacity which is equal to the smallest drive in the array. For sake of simplicity, I just say subtract 1 drive to make the calculations simpler.

Quote-- I NEVER USE ALL CAPS, BUT I HAVE TO HERE. PLEASE TELL ME YOU HAVE EMAIL ON YOUR COMPUTER!! Are you saying you do not have email? I can't believe that.

IF SO I DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOW YOU WOULD BE AT ANY MORE RISK FROM YOUR PATIENTS' EMAILS WITH EXCHANGE THAN FROM YOUR EMAIL.

Please answer this. It is driving me crazy! Do you have email on your computer? [/quote]

Bert--

Of course I have email on my computer, and I use it all the time.

What I said was, I don't use email with patients. Don't use it clinically. I don't want them sending me reams (funny we still use that word in our "paperless" world) of observations about their feelings and chest pains and bowel disruptions. I don't want them sending me the latest findings as reported on the Internet, with instructions for lab tests and new imaging tests I am supposed to arrange for them.

I don't send them lab results by email -- I would surely get immediate responses, and questions about the results, and demands for explanation and further "appropriate" testing.

All that for free.

That's what I don't do.

When someone figures out how to charge for email -- maybe PayPal should investigate this!, or when the Government really gets behind the electronic revolution they are pushing, and allows for a business model that actually includes it, then maybe I will spend even more time looking at the screen.

I hope not!!

I've got the basics down now -- over the weekend I figured out lots of things that you have probably forgotten you didn't know. Simple things, like logging into the domain, logging out and logging into the local machine. Honestly, there is no simple explanation of how that works. And you are right, there wouldn't really be any reason for me to use the same laptop on a domain and a workgroup, except in this situation where what I usually do is on the workgroup, and I am testing a domain setup for possible future use, and might want to use the same machine to go back and forth. But I have figured out how to do it if I have to.

The firewall was part of the problem, but so was the router. It was an old one that was in a cupboard at the office, and I brought it home to use for my test setup. I forgot that it was configured with DHCP turned off, and now that you explain that Essentials doesn't have DHCP enabled, I understand why that was also part of the problem.

I will go through your videos again, Sandeep. There are lots of little things to think about before I jump into this-- not so much because I am afraid of wasting money, but so I don't screw up what is already working well, for the promise of working better. I am a lot more comfortable moving this way after this weekend's exercises.

Yes, probably the T61 is slower. It has 4GB memory -- but that doesn't seem to be the difference -- my P2P "server" only has 2GB and is 32 bit. AC never even comes close to 2GB according to the Task Manager. I'm sure when I get around to building a server it will be faster than an old T61! But I am amazed by what that thing can do.

I don't hate wireless. I can move around in the exam room at will, sit next to the patient, sit across from the patient. Cross my legs, stand up -- I hate being tied to a desktop on a string.

I'm sure it is less secure, and probably a little slower -- but that is a tradeoff I have to make to allow patient interaction not to be focused on a machine. Just style, I suppose, but patients tell me how much they hate going to offices where the doctor is sitting across the room at a desk typing into his/her computer, and doesn't seem to pay them any attention.

Sandeep, Please jump in here. I guess I am not communicating it correctly. Tom, you have thanked me for my help. I feel now you will despise me. But, I simply can't let this go. Either I am missing what you are saying or you just simply are not getting Exchange.


Tom, I am totally not understanding your logic. Your patients can send you email via your email you already have or on your Exchange. Somehow, it seems evident that you are under the impression that Exchange email makes it easier for your patients to contact you. Ok, so you don't use email with your patients. Neither do I. If I did, they would have my email address and email me all the time. I don't want my patients to be able to email me for free. How do I do that? I don't email them. It just happens that I don't email them with my email address which uses Exchange. My email address which uses my domain uses Exchange. That email is badams AT riverviewpediatrics.com. But, it would be just as bad if I used my other account badams@roadrunner.com. Patients can send me email on either account.

Tom, at the risk of annoying you and/or pissing you off, are you under the impression that Exchange allows patients to email you more easily? And, if so, why.

Thanks. Please forgive me in advance.

As Bert pointed out, Exchange is essentially your own mini-Gmail/Hotmail. You don't have to give out your email address to your patients. It just centralizes everything when your email account or your staff's accounts can be centrally managed with your Windows account. You control your mailbox size, attachment size, joint accounts, and all of that. Links up with your phone as well.

We have a joint staff account. staff@driluthra.org (which is shared between people at the front desk). Personal emails are not given out. Patient's are not emailed directly. Like you said, if that was the case. We would be reading emails all day.

Exchange is more than email though: it has a calendar, contacts, tasks. All of that in one place. Basically, it's your own little GMail/Hotmail which you have in house, not on someone else's server. Your internal messaging is secure. Gmail is not obligated to protect your emails. More control for you basically.

I'd also like to point out that you have to have an Exchange server to enjoy some of Outlook's more advanced features, such as calendar sharing.

JamesNT

And, one of the greatest features ever, RPC/HTTP. That is just too cool.

Tom, those are EXACTLY my thoughts. Sitting and facing the patient, with the laptop on my lap (or on the exam table if the patient is sitting in a chair) seems like I am paying much more attention to the patient (even if they are going on and on and on, and I am actually browsing this board.)

Overall no real speed issues with laptops.

Gene

not at all, Bert. I'm not offended or easily pissed off.
And yes, I do understand what Exchange does, having read your posts.
And yes, you have been extremely helpful, as I suspect you will be in the future. I'm not done with this yet!

No, I don't think Exchange makes it any easier for patients to email. It's just another piece of complexity, another program to administer, that I don't see any personal need for. I use yahoo.com and our local ISP pacifier.com -- and for now, its enough.

I can certainly see an advantage in a big office, especially if the staff is spending a lot of time on personal email.

Tom

Thanks Tom, I can finally relax, lol.

No, Exchange is not all that helpful unless you want all the bells and whistles. I don't blame you at all. It doesn't come with Essentials anyway. Just so you know in case you do decide to go with Standard, like most things, if the OS is installed correctly, you won't even know it is there. There is no maintenance.

But, like I said, it's not in Essentials. For Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Outlook; you have to subscribe. That could be rather cool. Haven't tried it yet. Thanks for the explanation.

GENE!!

Get thee behind me, Satan!

I occasionaly take the Amtrak out to Washington DC to visit my daughter. Train stops briefly in Cumberland. Could I come and visit you some day? No time soon, no trips planned

Tom Duncan

Now that things are quieting down on this thread, I'd like to know what advantage your server folks find that SBS offers over Microsoft Office 365. 365 offers cloud-based Exchange email using your domain name, shared calendars, instant messaging, PC-to-PC calling, video conferencing, web-based viewing and editing of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote files, a team site for sharing files, an external website and antivirus and anti-spam filtering for $8 per person per month. And you don't need a hardware server.

Let me interrupt this hi-tech party long enough to make a couple of points. I realize that most of the people to whom this is directed are unlikely to be reading it; if it were the second post in the thread, maybe it would reach them. This far in, they have likely left already.

1. Vicki, this thread started with you talking about reluctantly leaving AC because ?we don't have money to buy the kind of server we want or need?. In my opinion, your answer is clear-cut and brief: you don?t need a new server; you need to upgrade. If that doesn?t work, you can consider alternative hardware. While that point was made, I am afraid it is easily overlooked in the flurry that followed.

2. To the majority of the users considering AC, or those currently using it: you don?t need a server. You don?t need to buy expensive hardware or master a server operating system to use AC. If you don?t believe me, This is especially true if you are a one or two doctor practice, or if you have a single office (or have additional offices and can use Logmein or Remote Desktop).

3. There are benefits to a client-server setup. You can read about those advantages described in great depth above. Some consider it to be fun to work with, and that is why they have it.
Keep in mind that if you do want a server OS installed and a network set up, at least the first time, you should plan to hire an IT person to do it. This is not true of a peer-to-peer system.

4. Tom?s experience has provided a perfect example of the reason why I think it is so important to keep emphasizing the above points. Tom is someone who might want to have a more complex system. Bert and Sandeep have provided a wealth of useful expertise and help in achieving this. One of Tom?s points is ?mostly it's just hands on and trial and error. I don't quite understand why it has to be that way. It's what drives my wife (and all my non-tech nerd friends) crazy about computers. And the principal reason why only one of the two of us is ever going to use an EMR.? There are many people like Tom?s partner out there; many more people are like that than like Bert and Sandeep. Tom, Bert, and Sandeep should have a system that is as fast and complex as they would like; the average physician who is not on an EMR should understand that none of that is a necessary part of successfully running AC.


This may make me seem like a Luddite or a wet blanket, but I think it needs to be said. Especially so when the board is filled with high tech posts that may overwhelm or turn-off the average viewer.

Jon that post has nothing to do with what the topic was or P2P. The fact that Sandeep and I were talking to Tom about Essentials in no way turns anyone off. If it does, then don't blame it on me.

P2P is fine. I am basically tired of saying it. Here is a quote from a long time MVP friend of mine:

If you don't own a server, and you are a small office, then do P2P. If you do have a server and you insist on staying P2P, that makes no sense.

Tom asked for our help, and we provided it. I am not going to stop writing about servers, because it may keep some people from buying AC. That is absurd.

Vicki asked about an issue that was easily fixed with an upgrade. It was answered.

This is a thread, not a forum. There are many threads in a forum. When I look on the Most Recent Posts, I choose which thread I am interested in. This happens to be a thread on hardware and servers. If someone wants to read it, they can, if not they don't have to. I don't read about MU. I don't read about coding.

If I have ever said you MUST have a server to run your network, I can't recall. If so, it has been a while. I have been the voice of reason in the P2P wars.

The battle between P2P and client/server domain has been drawn in the sand. Frankly it gives people a choice. If they want info on servers, it's here. If they want info on P2Ps it is there. I suspect that this thread will continue. If someone wishes to start a thread on P2P, there is nothing stopping them.