Home Forums Discussions General Discussion From P2P to Client/Server for less than $699.00

Hi everyone,

I just ran across some really cool and interesting stuff a friend of mine told me about. It looks like it is worth looking into for some.

The first is Microsoft Windows Server 2008 R2 Foundation. It is a server OS that has most of the features of the big boys, and the neat thing is you can upgrade from it to any of the more robust OS. It has a domain controller, terminal services, active directory and more. Plus, it has the speed and reliability of server architecture. The really cool thing is it's FREE. Yes, free. It comes installed in certain OEM machines.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/foundation.aspx

Dell is one of these. So, you get a Dell Server T100 with a Dual Core Intel Pentium Processor with 2.70 Ghz. A 250GB hard drive with SATA controller and pretty much everything else you need. 2GB of RAM which can be upgraded to 4GB for the cost of a movie for two. $30. Now, the OS doesn't have Exchange or Sharepoint something many wouldn't need or want. Be sure to scroll down to the operating system section in the configuration. Foundation is free. The least expensive Microsoft OS is $610 and you could go as high as $8460.00.

http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=ca&CS=cabsdt1&l=en&oc=PET100_F2

Finally, for those who do want something like Exchange, Sharepoint and Web Conferencing, Microsoft has come up with BPOS. This is Microsoft's Business Productivity Online Suite. I am not sure of the cost. I have heard around $10.00 per month for each user for Outlook, Exchange, OWA, etc.

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/...99d9ede5-ce15-476c-9a3f-d42a481d287e.htm

So, for $699.00, you get a introductory but fairly robust Dell server with a full fledged Microsoft OS at the 2008 level. For the added $10.00 per month per user, you can get the BPOS. I know this seems like maybe it's a waste, but if you can trial it or try it for three months or so, I think you would see what the big deal is about Exchange Server, etc. And, SharePoint is....well...Sharepoint. The greatest piece of software Microsoft has ever devised. The email has antivirus built right in, the biggest entry for viruses in any environment.

If I didn't already have a network, I would be all over this.

Oh, and I forgot. The OS is good for 15 users. No CALS. Generally, if you purchased an OS, it would run $1,000 or so, and the client licenses may run you more than this.

Seriously, this is unbelievable. I simply don't know how they do it. Obviously, they expect to rope you into a Microsoft Server solution and hope you do upgrade to a more expensive solution. But, if I were a lot of you out there, I would let them rope me in. And, I'll even promise to help you set it up if you have questions.

I know that Bert is always trying to get people to use a server software solution, but this is a great deal for a basic server. I would encourage anyone who is using a basic workstation for a "main computer" should jump on this - would probably add a little memory, but am considering buying one as a spare.

I think Steven mentioned he would be willing to help someone if they needed it. Can't recall.

Of course I always just use my server as a peer to peer - since I have XP Home machines - can I still use this or do I have to upgrade to a domain ? I heard from Bert that this can take a lot of work...

No work at all. It's a cinch. Especially for you. I think you are pulling my leg?

Ok Bert

Maybe this time I am convinced but only because it is cheaper. Within the next month, I was planning on purchasing a new Dell Optiplex with 2 hard drives so I have redundancy if one fails to act as my Peer to peer "Server". The cost with two 160Gb harddrives is about $1000. It comes with Windows 7. I currently have AC on my 5 year old Optiplex running XP and 4 other machines in the office set up in a P2P. It is working great. Tell me again why I should do the real server thing? Does this set up have 2 hard drives running in Parallel or does that add to the cost? Thanks
Bill

Well, unless, I am misunderstanding what running in parallel is, the only way you will have redundancy is with a RAID1 in that configuration. Which will mean either a hardware or software RAID controller which I doubt you will be able to set up on a Dell Optiplex.

Even if you did nothing more than purchase the 699 dollar server with the OS, you will be far ahead of what you were thinking about.

Now, if you wanted that RAID, you could add another 160GB drive ($110) and a RAID1 controller ($220), and you are still way ahead.

The number of features is hard to describe. I would recommend a few things.

OK, while typing this (and I must be seeing things) but the Dell price just dropped to $629.00! Personally, I would chat with Dell (you can get right through) and ask about the deal and what support would come with it as far as setup. If you purchase it from a Microsoft Partner (which I am, but I don't know how to sell it and you wouldn't want my support), they give full support.

So, I chatted with Microsoft about the program, and they recommended those who were interested to click on any of the eight company icons at the bottom of the page. Contacting those vendors is the best way to learn more about this program. Again, the link is below.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/foundation.aspx

As far as support, you can call Microsoft Platform Support Team at 800-936-4900, but it is probably easier and cheaper if not free through the Microst Partner at the specified vendors.

He also stated that if one had other questions to again go to the eight vendors, but one could call the Microsoft Platform Sales Team at 800-426-4900.

Very interesting. Apparently, Microsoft Server 2008 Foundation has been available for almost a year. It is OEM and only available through select vendors with hardware.

When I went to Dell's site I was able to configure their
lowest cost server (Model T105 = 269 after $268 discount, dual core athelon 2.3, 160 G hard drive ) and
2 G memory for $19
Microsoft Server 2008 Foundation was $259 = $547
upgrade to 250G for $30 = $577
3 year warrentee basic 120 = $704

I just wish I could get the software for $260 and build my own.

But WOW, that is a lot less than servers have ever been available before.

Very cool, Wendell. And before anyone starts freaking out over 2GB of RAM (upgradeable to 4GB for $30), think of this.

Sure, I have the ridiculous amount of 20GB of RAM on my SBS2008 server given it is 64-bit, but I ran my network with 1GB (yes 1GB) of RAM for over a year. I am not sure I know the difference.

To be honest, I can't imagine why anyone out there with a "main computer" of XP Pro or whatever wouldn't jump at this deal. At the very least (besides having a huge step up in performance), you would have a computer that isn't being used as a server and a workstation.

Bert,

I'm pretty dumb about this stuff. What would you advise in terms of a network? We are a group of four docs (maximum of two working at one time)in 8 exam rooms. We see about 2000 - 2500 pts/month.

In your opinion, would an on-site server be advisable? We will be starting from the ground up when we make the move to EMR.

I was thinking we would need a central computer for the docs, and one computer for each exam room.

At home, I am a dedicated MAC user, but before that, I had pretty good luck with Dell. If you were in our shoes, what would you be looking for in terms of computers, and server, etc.
I was looking at the Dell Optiplex line, only because they seemed pretty affordable and business-based..

If we did get a server, do you think we would still need the offsite backup of AC?

Many thanks for any info/advice!
Melanie

Melanie,

I will get back to you tomorrow. Good questions.

Hi Melanie,

Well, that really is a loaded question as it all depends on how much money you want to spend, what kind of OS you want, are you Microsoft, Linus, Mac, etc. It does sound as if you have experience with Mac, but it is not user friendly with AC, although you can do it.

If you are starting from scratch, then you may as well do client/server. Everyone on here knows I prefer that route, but it is really no different than P2P except that everything is on the server. In P2P, you can have everything on the "main computer" as you have to designate one computer as the "server" with AC in order to run it correctly or at all.

Again, even if you purchase a fancy server and a server OS, doesn't really change anything other than your AC is running on better hardware. Server hardware is just better in almost every aspect of a computer as far as speed, reliability, etc. The OS, though, is really not that useful unless you allow it to be a domain controller or run the network depending.

There really is no other good option than to have your server onsite. I suppose you could have someone host it, and if they are very good and inexpensive, that has its advantages. But, I would think most people keep it in house.

If I were setting your system up, I would go with the Dell Optiplexes (which are fine) and set up a low to mid end Dell Server with a RAID. I would then use SBS 2008 as would give you all sorts of business advantages: Exchange Server, Sharepoint, SQL Server 2005 all included which would cost much more if you added them to, say, Windows Server 2003 or 2008. It sounds as if you would at least have to have someone come in and set up your network if you aren't comfortable doing that. But, the Small Business Servers are loaded with wizards that make setup rather easy. Installing SBS would be simple. Configuring it would be a little harder. It is relatively easy to attach each client PC to the domain as the wizard for that is foolproof.

Wired vs Wireless: I am simply a wired person. It's faster, and you never lose your connection. It's also more secure, although that isn't much of an issue anymore. You can easily do both. You can set up a wired network and then have a wireless access point if your doctors were using notebooks.

Backup up online vs no has really nothing to do with your type of network. It is imperative to have some type of off site backup. You can really do both. If you have a server, it is good to back it up nightly. You can always do AC backups on top of that.

It's certainly cheaper to go with P2P. If you had 8 Dell client computers, that is less money than 8 plus a $3,000 server and around $1,000 for the OS and CALs. But, the Foundation setup above would make it affordable.

Let me know if I can be of anymore help.

Bert,

That is VERY helpful - I really appreciate it!
If we were to go with the client/server arrangement, and got a low-to mid end Dell server with the foundation setup, is that what you were talking about above for about 700 bucks? Is the OS included in the Foundation setup? Does that include everything we would need?

With regards to the "want list", do I have the correct general idea here:

Dell server PowerEdge - about $700
Windows SBS 2008 Premium - $ 1899

How is the Foundation setup OS different from the SBS 2008 OS?

With regards to the SBS 2008 OS, would we be better going with the standard or premium version, in your opinion?

Having someone set it up is not as much of a problem for us, because we have IT people available. But I trust a computer-savvy working doc more than them as to what is best for what we might need. You are familiar with AC, they are not. They can hook up the wires and install everything. I agree, I think wired is best. The only wireless would be with the netbook/laptops that some might choose to use...

Thanks again for the advice!
Melanie

Just a point, Windows 7 Professional and Ultimate have built in Software RAID built into the operating system .. I currently use Ultimate on my "Main Computer" and the Software RAID, doesnt miss a beat, and is very fast. I have 2 x 500 GB Hard drives for the Data part of my Network, and a smaller 160 GB Hard drive on which resides the Windows OS7 and local files/ executables.

That is what is so attractive with the Foundation Program. The server and licenses come with it up to 15 users. It isn't SBS, it is the straight Windows Server 2008 Standard Edition R2. That doesn't make it worse -- in fact larger companies would use that server. It would, in fact, give you more flexibility if you wanted to add domains, etc. (but that is getting too technical and something you wouldn't do anyway -- at least not by yourself). You can add Sharepoint and/or Exchange Server later, but that would be more expensive than if you bought SBS right out of the box.


With the foundation program (and I would suggest you call either Microsoft or Dell or one of the other seven vendors -- you can probably find one in your area. This is the link to the Dell
http://configure.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=ca&CS=cabsdt1&l=en&oc=PET100_F2

But, it would not be a PowerEdge. That would be much more expensive. Again, the SBS 2008 Premium would be rather pricey and that is only with 5 CALs I believe. SBS Standard would be cheaper. Or the Foundation Program gives you a free regular 2008 Server which would be a great start. Think of 650 dollars for the server AND the OS AND the licenses.

Notice it has gone up from 629 to 817 or so. That is crazy. I know I could get it back down again.


The Foundation OS = Windows Server 2008 Standard Edition R2. This is an extremely top of the line server. It isn't SBS, but technically it is an OS that big time corps would use so nothing to sneeze at. You could always install SBS 2003 or 2008 later.

You definitely don't need premium for SBS. It would give you SQL Server 2008 instead of 2005, and it would give you Windows Server 2008 integration, something you definitely don't need.

Thanks, Bert! Very helpful info, as usual!

melanie

Melanie,

Given 4 docs and 8 exam rooms, not including the front desk and back room folks that would need access, you should probably consider getting a beefier box for the server - more like a Dell PowerEdge 2900 with 2x quad core Xeon - you can get refurbished models off lease with 3 year warranty for about $2000 and these are much more fault tolerant and less likely to cause problems.

I couldn't agree more. I was just referring to someone who was going to purchase a regular workstation for $500 with XP Pro and how you could spend nearly the same and get a server.

I definitely think the 2900 PowerEdge is the way to go. I also like SBS and you may as well use 2008.

How do those of you with servers get around the HIPPA thing? Aren't there some security issues having a server onsite?

Melanie

A server is 50 times more secure than a workstation. As long as you are connected to the Internet, your data is vulnerable. Besides, a workstation is generally light and in the work area where anyone could grab it and, hence, the data. Your biggest weakness will always be user passwords and users period.

Now for my main points:

1. I have no idea what the HIPAA requirements are for a network
2. I don't care what the HIPAA requirements are for a network
3. How is HIPAA going to know how well my server is locked down
4. I have never, ever concerned myself with HIPAA.

From what I recall a year or so ago when backups were the big topic, at least 15% of users, if not more, were backing up AC to a flash drive and taking it home unencrypted. Now, if that doesn't violate HIPAA, nothing does.

My favorite quote, but only because I made it up:

If there is someone good enough to hack into my server to get my patient data, that person is probably not hacking into my server.

Another quote from an IT friend of mine on Experts Exchange:

1. Are there hackers out there good enough to hack into system? Definitely
2. Is there a hacker out there that will likely hack into my system? Doubtful.

Bert,

Gotcha! That's sort of what I thought. Our issue is the Compliance Officer of our partnership, who is absolutely, positively, concerned about EVERY aspect of HIPAA. If there are laws about HIPAA and networking, he'll find them and police us on them.

Maybe an onsite server is just not a good idea for us...I was talking to an IT guy last night who was there in the office fixing stuff (and who has been an independent contractor for our partnership for some time) and he said that since we do have an infrastructure already in place, with a server for the partnership, we wouldn't need an onsite server. He also doubted that we'd get permission to have one anyway...(That's what happens when you are part of a corporate structure!)

With a big server system, could we still have SBS 2008 installed for us to use?

At least I am learning that Raid is more than just a roach killer.



Melanie

And, I love those quotes!!!

I am not exactly sure how your network is set up, but having your server hosted is always an option. Many large businesses have their own servers, but many outsource them. Our hospital is in Maine, but our servers are in Kansas.

The servers they would be running would be Enterprise Servers such as Windows Server 2008 or Linux. If you were using their servers, I don't see how you would be able to use SBS 2008. It just wouldn't make sense and is limited to 75 users. Small Business Server is just that, a server intended for small businesses. Once, you get out of that realm, which you would with a corporation hosting your servers, then SBS wouldn't be an option if they wanted your data on their machines.

I don't know what is more boring. Being a compliance officer or having a network with no server to manage.

That's an idea. If we did that, we would be able to run SBS, right? What exactly does SBS have that we would benefit from?


That's an easy one for me - compliance officer!!!

As far as SBS 2003 or 2008, the only practical way you would be able to use it would be with a server in your own office. I am not sure how big your partnership is, but if it is a large business with many servers and their own IT people, they aren't going to run 20 servers with Linus or Windows Server 2008.

The only way I can see your using SBS would be if you had your own server. That's simply the only way.

Now, why use Small Business Server. Microsoft designed SBS 2003 specifically for small businesses. The main reason to use it is it gives you more functionality and is MUCH cheaper. If you bought Windows Server 2008, then you still pay for all the licenses. You then have to pay for Exchange Server 2010 at $1100 for five users. Each set of 5 CALs after that will run you nearly $400. Then you need SQL Server 2008. That will cost you dearly. Then the CALs for that. Of course, you could get SQL Express Edition for free, but now you have this hefty OS and SQL Express (which works fine for AC).

Now, here is what you get with SBS 2008. You get the core OS. It comes with Exchange Server without extra licenses. You get SQL Server 2005. AND, you GET Sharepoint. All this for about $650 for five users or per device. The extra CALs in five packs will run an edition $300 to $400. So, the cost difference is immense, and you get a lot more bang for your buck.

Okay...So I am already guessing that we'll have to pass on the in-house server and SBS.

Will that affect anything with AC? Does that mean that we will just have a P2P system?

Melanie

No, that will not affect AC. It sounds like you will have a Client/Server domain network setup no matter how you do it. If your company is going to host the servers off site, then they are smart enough to have all networks and not P2P.

If you are running P2P, by definition, you won't have a server/client setup. So, I doubt your company would make you have a P2P. That would make absolutely NO sense whatsoever.

But, AC, will either reside on a server either in house (sounds doubtful) or off site, or it will run on a central "main computer" in a P2P. Any of those configurations will allow AC to run.

Coming back to Bert's original posting, if I am building a new server I would definitely positively go the Foundation Server route. It is cheap and then if you want exchange get the online version.

Server on premise and services on the cloud is the way to go

I am just starting with Amazing Charts, am solo x 9 yrs, and have no prior practice management system. Do you suggest setting it up with a server? If so, how much hard drive and how much memory? The AC sales dept. feels that a server is unnecessary. Thoughts?

Hi solodocmom,

The AC sales department is correct that it is unnecessary, but I bet they have a server. But, it is true that P2P is fine. If you look at some of the past threads on here (and there are many), you will see many differing points of view. All you will need to run AC at the minimum is a good machine that can share the database to all the other computers. That is easy enough. You can always go to a server/client domain setup later.

I, personally, prefer using a client/server, but this is for many reasons, not the least of which is it is much more robust for EVERYTHING on your network. I think too many times on here, the conversation revolves around Amazing Charts and Servers and not your practice management, scheduling, AC and other programs that require speed and redundancy.

But, to answer your question rather simply, if you go with P2P, you should use at least 2GB of RAM on the computer with AC, if not more...some motherboards are limited. It also depends on your OS, WIN7 will require more RAM than XP Pro. Like RAM hard drive space is extremely cheap. So, while 80GBs would be plenty, I would recommend at least 160GBs or more. Again, the later the OS, the more space it takes, and Microsoft Updates take up space as will your imported items. So, even 160GBs on the server isn't huge. And, just get a decent dual-core or quad-core processor (Intel or AMD -- not Celeron). I generally find the highest speed, then come down a notch or two.

With OS, I would go WIN7 Pro, but others will tell you Home Premium is fine. For XP, please get XP Pro and not Home.

Just a few ideas.

I couldn't agree more, but then wasn't Sirini agreeing with me. I am referring to the cloud reference. You can get SharePoint up there with Exchange also. It's pretty cool.

Thanks so much for the response!! I am only using QuickBooks and will be using AC. Do I need to get a practice management system if I am outsourcing my billing?

I guess it depends what you are referring to as Practice Management. But, if you use AC's scheduler and outsource your billing, then you probably don't need to.

It's kind of a moot point, because Jon is working on a PM now, and I am guessing that will be in version 6.

We are trying to order the server and it is coming to $3800. Does that sound right? Intel xeon x3430, 2.4 ghz, 3 yr on site repair warranty, 1 yr remote tech service, 6 Gb registered ddr3 ram, windows server 2008 OS, RAID5, 3 x 250 Gb harddrives. We are networking with windows 7 lenovo thinkpads and thinkcentres (2 of each).

For a brand new one, sounds OK. Would need the whole set of specs. You could think about one more drive or a hot spare. 2008 and Windows will take up at least 80GB or more of the 500GBs you have now.

RAM is cheap. SQL loves RAM. Since the big upside to 64-bit is having the ability to go to 64 RAM instead of 4, I would consider going to 8 or 10. I have 20GB -- which is definitely overkill, but at least 8 would be nice.

But, why not SBS 2008. To me, that's a no brainer. To have Exchange Server 2007, SQL Server 2005 (not Express), Sharepoint and RWW all for free is unbeatable. I would definitely, definitely, definitely go with Small Business Server.

I am still fairly computer illiterate as pertains to all of these operating systems. If I only use AC and Quickbooks, what do the exchange server, SQL Server, Sharepoint, and RWW offer that would help me over just the windows 2008 OS? Oh, I also plan to use updox, although I don't know if that has any requirements.

I don't have time right now between patients, but if you want an OS that should require an IT administrator and be capable of handling the needs of your local hospital with multiple servers and domain controllers, etc. along with expensive licensing for their Exchange Servers, have a really strong grasp of how to manage Active Directory and DNS, then by all means get Server 2008. If you want a server that is completely different from a server for the large business and corporate world and is designed as it is named for the Small Business making it much easier to manage with more features included in any other server, then SBS is the way to go.

I will go through how incredible RWW is. I will try to explain why Sharepoint is the best application for a network ever designed, why you would want SQL with an EMR that uses a SQL database (it does, of course, come with Express) and why you would want to have you own mail exchange rather than use an ISP later. Besides, the fact that Exchange is HIPAA compliant when you want to email in house. Remember, Exchange Server, is one of Microsoft's flagship products. To get it free is not a bad thing.

Hello All:

Sorry guys, nothing is free when it comes to Microsoft or Dell. The Dell server with Server 2008 R2 is built into the price of the system if it is installed when you recieve it.

I am a true IT guy and I consult with physicians for sizing their systems. The most important thing to remember in going to EHR is redundancy/reliabilty.

Your system needs to be robust from the perspective that if EHR is down, it is next to impossible to see patients. Translated the doc is losing money. EHR is a pay now or really pay when the doctor can not see patients.

Get a system that is reliable. Non of this I have a friend down the street who can fix it stuff.

Yes you can put this application on a desktop runing Windows XP or Windows 7 and run it, but this is not a good idea and you can only have 10 connections to the desktop at a time.

The up front investment to do it right is worth the money if you have ever had a hard disk crash.

I recommend

2 Docs or More

Dell 2900 Mirrored 146 Gig Hard drives
4 Gig memory
Tape backups system
Windows server 2003 R2 or 2008 R2 if 2003 is not available. I am not that big of a fam of Small Business Server. It always come on a low end system with one hard drive. If it fails you are dead in the water.