Home Forums Discussions General Discussion E-Rx with Exostar, as Verizon will no longer support Controlled E-Rx

It isn't extremely hard to register the token. But, it is not straightforward either. This is one step where I can help if you need help. I just went through it.

I may take you up on your offer, when I can proceed onto the next step after my video web cam vetting in 10 days.

Hurry up. I only have 12 years, 11 months and 30 days left on my warranty.

This whole thread is just proof of the insane asylum that "healthcare" has become.
Here is what Bloomberg says about Exostar -- and I ask you
1. Is that an English paragraph?
2. Why do I need someone to "manage my value chain". I've been able to manage it pretty well by myself for the last 74 years.



Fortunately, in Oregon we can still write paper prescriptions, and if there is any concern about "authentication" the pharmacist simply calls up on the phone to check.

So much frustration, time wasting, and distraction is distilled in the posts above! And why in the world should we pay all that money, to say nothing about wasting all that time, to those parasites in Virginia?? $500/year to write a few narcotics? I think it is time to seriously give up that class of prescription.

Tom,
You are absolutely right, I am going to see how the video webcam vetting goes, and if another set of hurdles presented, then I am going to go back to paper scripts for scheduled meds. Not that I do that much, I really don't, but it is a lot easier on my patients when I prescribe electronically, less running around for them. But, there is a breaking point to all this madness.

I think that is an unfair assessment of Exostar.

First, the United States as a whole and states, in general, have launched a war on opioids, that while I do not know how it is going in other states, is very strict and is working in Maine. The difficulty of prescribing opioids or getting them off will last as long as the program is in place. Just the mere statute that you must get every patient down to 100 Morphine Mg Equivalents is a huge step. Even as a pediatrician, I am embarrassed to say that I have five over that and one over 300. Some with the right codes and PAs are allowed to be on doses higher than that. One of the rules is that you must use EPCS. It won't be long before everyone uses it.

This cross-state lookup started with only a few states, and more are added every day. This is the PMP, which must be checked at least every three months by providers and pharmacists. We never used to use them except when we suspected a patient was involved in diversion, but we now catch more.



The paragraph listed does seem to make Exostar difficult and complex. If you read their site, you will see they confirm the identities of the DoD and many other government agencies. This is what they do. Lumping everything together would be like saying Verizon sucks, because they have their hands in many other things. Verizon, of course, did our identifying before. With Verizon, there was an error at least one in fifteen times. With Exostar, that is zero. Zero. Because it is what they do. They don't build cell towers and over charge for data.

ePrescribing, for me, was the single greatest part of the EMR. Prior to that, if I had five meds to write, I had to write them all by hand, meaning at least one was illegible. I certainly didn't type them into AC. It was controlled substances that made me buy the Star Print, ironically also way more complex than it needed to be. But, it sure made print scripts much easier if they needed to be single scripts. It was always nice to know that what you saw in AC was what was on the script. Sure, you could print to plain paper, but that had its own limitations, especially when MaineCare no longer let you prescribe Melatonin on a 8 1/2 sheet of paper, lest the MC patient change 3 tablet to 6.

I am not sure if your practice is two people or one. $It is $250 annually and not $170. And that comes with the $80 token subscription, which is a lifesaver when you leave your phone at home or that battery goes dead.

Again, it is hard to knock it until you try it. IF you use EPCS with Verizon and you like it, you will then love it with Authy. It is so much quicker, never having to log in, and saving three or four clicks. And, it never goes wrong. Ever. Never say never, but here it's as close as you can get to never.

I wish I only wrote a few controlled substances. Fortunately, we have around 75 patients on ADHD meds, the largest per physician in the state. It is something I specialize in. EPCS made it easier and safer, Exostar has made it a cakewalk. No more patients claiming they lost their script. No more patients stating they didn't have another prescription. No more patients selling their scripts. This was true with Verizon, but Authy is so much better.

The problem, as with all issues like this, is there are three companies in the mix. NewCrop, who provides the interface and one I will agree is horrific, AC who is supposed to be the one we go to when there is a problem, and Exostar who came up with this convoluted process of identification. But, it is only once, and if you ask someone if the security company watching Experian or calling Experian yourself is going to block the vetting questions, then that may make it easier. There does seem like there would be a better way to vet users online. Or even doing it by mail. I still think returning an email and sending a script to a waiting representative, thereby showing you are in front of your computer and can use EPCS. My God, there is such a thing as an IP address.

I really think looking at the posts above makes the whole process seem a lot more difficult than it is. AC should be all over this. They should be making appointments to walk people through the process. When that two-hour times slot (and I say two hours -- it takes 45 minutes at the most), because you could be instructed to do a GoToMeeting with a laptop and cam available so you don't need a second appointment. That would piss me off. What worries me is the past performance of AC support. I'm sorry, it just does. The vetting process by using questions that only Experian knows is fraught with problems and seems a bit problematic with confidentiality. Certainly, we didn't take Boards with four questions. The larger the sample size, the more likely you will pass. There should be 20 vetting questions. And, they should not be based on the female NP needing to answer questions about leases of her husband's. Sounds sexist to me.

In my view, this all falls on Exostar, and they be the one fielding questions: Here are a few of the contact methods:

703-793-7800 (I have not tried this number. I would ask for the division that does EPCS identification.
This same info can be found at the screen, which you can reach via: Manage via NewCrop screens on the scriptwriter in AC -> click on Admin (top right) -> Manage Your EPCS Account -> View our FAQs (almost top left in a #2 font). By the way, this would be the way that allows you to activate your token (you have to click Authenticate anywhere, but I chose under Manage Mobile Credential) which then allows you to do the things it asks you to do which you can't do until those are done, after all, it is Exostar) -> Contact us -> the phone number above is world wide -- Click here for a support case online. -> and, of course, their website: www.exostar.com. With another number 703-793-7733. I guess that one is not worldwide.

If you really wanted to complain, you could write to them at: 2325 Dulles Corner Blvd, 6th floor, Herndon, VA 20171.

From everything I know, and this isn't possible, but NewCrop certainly is in a great position to help here. If Exostar doesn't do it, and AC is our only resource, then wow would NC be the way to go. But, they don't do it. And, having to pay $50 is just wrong when you already have support.

Anyway, I know my logic is circular. I kind of talk at length and make fun of the process while stating it isn't that difficult. It's annoying, it shouldn't be this crazy, but in the end, it isn't all that difficult. Since, having LifeLock or some other security questions AUTOMATICALLY kicks you to webcam, I suppose if it were I, I would do two things:

1. I would write, yes write, a letter to Exostar telling them the vetting process is less than ideal and the fact that LifeLock doesn't even allow them to use it, shows that confidentiality is a problem. But, other than use a webcam cab appointment, why do they not work with Experian or TransUnion to get around the security block.
2. Be prepared with a webcam and tell AC you are going to do it on such and such a day, and you want to do the webcam thing that day if it is necessary.

Anyway, that's my two, no three cents.

Thank you Bert.
I think you made my point -- the medical system has been infested with parasites, who do everything possible to increase the needless complexity so that no one can do simple tasks without signing on to their protection-racket schemes.

Beginning about 20 years ago I dutifully, along with countless of my colleagues, attended multiple workshops (required by the Board of Medicine and the legislature, BTW) to tell us that we needed to treat pain with combinations of long and short acting drugs -- in high doses if necessary -- because people with "chronic pain" needed to be taken seriously, and the risk of addiction was so low as to be inconsequential if you were treating pain. I had a number of patients who were accepted by "pain specialist consultants" only on the condition that I continue and monitor the drug regimen they started (which until recently, would included methadone and fentanyl)

You know that story, of course -- and now for the last 3-4 years it has been the wrenching pullback, and the "PCP"'s are having to accept the blame for this situation which was not of their own making. A couple of years ago I went to a Univ. of Washington Medical School "Primary Care Review" -- and the first words out of the mouth of the first speaker (a pain specialist) were that the "PCP"'s caused the problem because they were "insufficiently trained."

In any case, I am drastically, but slowly, reducing the opiate prescriptions of my chronic pain patients, and am finding that people on chronic opioids, for the most part, will accept the fact that they have been prescribed too much -- whoever is to blame-- and that they will have to get by with less. For some, it is relatively easy to taper slowly -- they discover that their pain level really doesn't change very much, that they always have pain, just as they did with the higher doses, and they can adapt to lower doses. I have set my goal at 30 MED for everyone on chronic narcotics and have told them that it is just something that will have to happen - the law requires it. Only a few actually push back, but of course, they don't have any recourse, since they are stuck with me -- no other doctor in the state will take on a new chronic narcotic patient in the current climate.

30 MED (that term wasn't used then) was roughly what was considered "acceptable in the mid-nineties, and the acceptable dose was actually quite a lot less in the mid-70's which was another period of demonization of narcotics. Yet people with pain seemed to get along about as well (or as badly) in those days as they do now on higher doses -- so except for addicts, I am not seeing much of a problem.

With respect to printing C-II prescriptions -- I use nothing fancy. We get 8.5 x 11" sheets of tamper-resistant (Medicare approved) stock which comes from the printer pre-perforated in quarter sheets.
I then use a cheap HP laser printer to print the quarter sheets, using the stock HP software driver to fit the AC prescription to the quarter sheet. It comes out with very tiny print since I am reducing a full sheet to a quarter sheet, and there is no control over font size in AC, but it is legible, and the pharmacies don't complain. It's more legible than my handwriting, for sure. And that way, controlled drugs come out of the prescription module in AC, but meet all the current Federal and State requirements. Very hassle free. It goes without saying that "lost" prescriptions are not replaced -- the security is up to the patient, not to some third party that wants to charge ME for looking out for A PATIENT'S prescription security.

Not to go to far afield, but I strongly recommend the book Dreamland: The True Tale of America's Opiate Epidemic by Sam Quinones. Even for those of us who recall (and lived through) the history Tom describes above, it is an eye-opening, informative, and fascinating explanation of how we got into our current mess with opiates. I think it should be required reading for everyone who writes a prescription for a controlled substance.

I tried the second round of identity verification using the questions and failed again. I got four questions then 6 more. Some questions were old some were new, like how many bedrooms my house has and recognizing a vehicle tag I have had in past. I think I got those right, but the bar must be set very high to pass. Anyway, after 15 minutes more on this project, I am scheduled for the webcam next month. The first available time was 3 weeks out! Unfortunately, the only times available were when I am scheduled for vacation.

I echo what Tom said about this being just another frustration regarding controlled prescribing.

Unfortunately, I have found pain clinics to be less than useful. First, there are not enough and, second, before all of the opioid changes, their only goal was to get them on acupuncture and tea tree oil, and get them back to me in two sessions completely off their pain meds. They were in the throes of withdrawal, so I had no choice but to put them back up to a certain level, not the original level. They then would return to the pain clinic, the pain doctor would call me yelling, because I had ruined their plan. At that time, pain clinics would have been good if they come up with alternative ways to treat while tapering the opioid. Now, they would be helpful just knowing how to taper.

Thank you for contacting Exostar Customer Support!

Your request for assistance has been received and case C582474: Vetting has been created for you. A member of our support team will be in contact soon. To update your case online click here, or simply reply to this e-mail. You may also access your case history in the Exostar Billing and Support Center. Thank you,Exostar Customer Support.

To ensure inbox delivery of case messages, please add our email to your email address book.

SO I EMAILED THESE GUYS. TOLD THEM HOW WE FELT. SHOULD BE A BIG CHANGE SOON. LOL.

and now I see that my chromebook will not run the webex test session and there are only 3 days next month available for proofing. I don't have windows notebook. Maybe the hotel business center will work.

Can you borrow someone's? I know. It sucks. But, it's the last hoop. I want to hear IF there are any horror stories from AC support. You can get a cam from BestBuy for pretty cheap or probably from Amazon, for $20.00.

Or get a Ringcam. Then if you fail at least you have security at your house. Sorry. I did really go off on them.

Borrow a laptop? Only Windows will work??
Why can't you use the webcam in your cell phone?
I read over this whole thread with nothing but horror and disgust.

Jon -- I will look up "Dreamland"
And I would recommend "The Ibis Trilogy" -- for a little more historical perspective on how we got where we are. It is the story of the the development of British opium plantations in India, and the forcing of Chinese to accept opium in trade for silk and porcelain -- and the involvement of Yankee traders (like Johnny Delano, ancestor of FDR) -- culminating in two "opium wars" and resulting in cession of Hong Kong and much else to the British. Very complex story.

And then there is "The Politics of Heroin: CIA Complicity in the Global Drug Trade"
by Paul McCoy, professor of history at Univ. of Wisconsin.

Going on beyond our medical bubble, we might get the idea that we physicians are just pawns in a multi-generational, multi-national, unbelievably malevolent criminal scheme.

And then there is Arthur Sackler, MD-- who when I was a young physician wrote inspirational columns in the "Medical Tribune" (which he owned) about medical professionalism and morality, and with his brother, also a physician, built their OTC drug company Purdue-Fredrick into a pharmaceutical powerhouse which eventually (long after his death) went on to catapult Oxycontin to unbelievable profitability through very nefarious marketing schemes -- and the modern day Opium War started (or became resurgent.)

Yup, Sackler and Purdue are part of the story in "Dreamland". Will check out your suggestions.

I thought someone mentioned cell phones. Anyway, NewCrop recommends cell phones as the preferred method for webcam.

Bert,
Thanks for the tip about the cell phone and webex webcam session. I didn't even think of that. My phone runs the webex app just fine. My chromebook has a webcam, but natively won't run webex for exostar proofing session. I realize now I could install webex app on the chromebook and get it to work.

The other "fun fact" which I better run by NC for you is will you still have to confirm yourself, my logging out of "you" on AC and logging in as "someone else" who is not someone who can do EPCS. Then you can confirm yourself using that user, before logging out of them and back in as you. That's how I had to do it when I got through the confidential Experian questions.

* That is what I did. And, it is that exact process. But, I purposely made it sound more difficult than it is. Actually, it sounds difficult, because it is. And, I had the benefit of being on the phone with them while they could see my screen.

But, hey, they couldn't see me. So, as Bill Murray said in Caddyshack, "At least you go that much going for me." Well, he said it in the first person, but you know what I meant.

One of my partners just went through the Exostar vetting and got through without the need for a webcam interview, and tells me the E-scribing is a bit easier without the extra steps as Bert describes above.

I will let everyone know of my experience with the Exostar video web vetting later this week.

One thing to note is if you do the web cam with a phone or whatever if you are on vacation, you will still need to confirm using AC. But, you can do that when you get back. It doesn't have to be at the same time.

Very cool that one of Jimmie's partners got through. Just to keep everyone excited at least from my point of view, I find it a lot easier. Certainly no "bit easier" or "lot easier," but you literally don't have to take your hand off the mouse until you have to click Accept on your phone.

Good to know, I just asked my partner if I could quote her description of the process as "a bit easier" and she said yes. She has only been Exostar EPCS'ing for about 24 hours.

LOL. That's good then. She is probably just enamored by the cute little Authy. You have to give Exostar credit. Authorize -- Authy. The wheels must have been turning.

Now, you can give her a hard time for not having LifeLock!

LOL, I will have to do that! Now she can get Lifelock since the Exostar vetting is behind her.

The irony is I have been looking at LifeLock for a while. Why? Because of Equifax.

Good news, I just completed the videocam vetting from Exostar, which took about 10 minutes. I just needed my phone, my laptop with the videocam (pretested to make sure it worked beforehand) and my driver's license. Exostar Andrew, through the videocam verified my driver's license and asked a series of simple questions and gave me my Activation code (good for a month)at the completion of the process.

Then I worked with Ryan from AC Guardian Support(for about 25 minutes) who had prearranged a meeting after I completed my Exostar vetting. He remoted into my computer to complete the activation process with NewCrop so I can now EPCS Exostar style.

I won't have to pay for Exostar until June when my Verizon EPCS money runs out.

I agree with Bert, a helluva lot easier with Exostar! Nice to have the option of the Token OR the Authy app to enter the code to EPCS. This has been a bit painful, but I think the smoother process will be a nice improvement.

Awesome! I am so happy for you. I wonder if the process should just be like that for everyone. I guess doing vetting saves a lot of support, but I bet Ryan did help. The rest of the process after the ID can be done, but I am sure you would agree it can be a bit crazy. Verify this to get that code. Enter that code to get the next code. Etc.

Hey, I have one question. When you say, "...Authy app to enter the code to EPCS," do you mean where you can open the app and enter the number displayed for so many seconds, or are you using the "Send Push Notification to Approve?" If not that is much easier as you don't have to type anything. When you hear the sound it makes (usually in about two seconds), you can open the phone to the home page (or more easily, drag down from the top, and their will be a Red Bar which says New Crop message. You click on that and the screen just turns to all NewCrop and there is an Approve (bottle left) or Deny (bottom right). Rather self explanatory. Click on Approve.



This is the screen you will see after two clicks once the medication is pending. The radio button for Authy Phone App would be marked by default IF you didn't have the Hard Token. To be honest, not sure why they are even there. But, once the hard token is activated and tied to the Exostar account, it now becomes the default button selected. IT MEANS NOTHING. YOU CAN STILL USE THE Send Push Notification to Approve.

If you click on SPNTA (acronym for the long Send Push....) then your phone will automatically have Authy from NewCrop populate your home screen. The nice thing is that it is bright red and ALWAYS at the top. You can complete the approval two other ways, both of which I find more difficult:

First, understand that you NEVER have to open the app like you did with Verizon. If you open your phone and click on the Authy app, it will give you a six digit code in the format XXX XXX for a certain length of time. You can enter that in the Enter passcode field and Sign Rx.

The other method would be to click the button on the Hard Token and it will give you a six digit code, and you can enter that in the Enter passcode field and click Sign Rx.

There is the possibility of entering the wrong code or entering it too late, plus you have to open your phone, click on the app, enter the code and then Sign Rx.

If you use SPNTA with your mouse, you do not have to deal with the NewCrop screen at all again. Much simpler.

When I spoke with NC when I was doing this, I was advised the following. The token should be viewed as a backup method only. In other words, kept in your desk, maybe even locked up. It is only for the day that your phone battery is dead or you left it at home. It not only takes longer, but it makes the whole process less secure. In fact, I am surprised how insecure the process is especially compared to Verizon.

But, there are providers who leave AC open and only close Windows. Or maybe leave it open in their office or elsewhere. Given you are already logged in, the only thing standing between a staff member and Oxycontin is a passcode. If you are using the passcode, it would be far easier to leave it sitting around for a moment compared with your phone. You can even lock your phone.

Or you can lose it. A replacement is around $80.00. So, my recommendation would be to lock it or hide it in your desk.

Any questions?

Bert,

Yes, Ryan helped out immensely, I could have figured it out but having him running my desktop made it much much quicker and less stressful.

I tried it both ways, as you describe two paragraphs below your screenshot of Scheduled Drug Transmission. I entered the six digit code via the token and the Authy app. Both ways easier than the Verizon method IMHO.

I did not realize you can click on the "Send Push Notification to Approve" as this sounds even easier. So I will have to try that method out next week.

I agree with you, I think I will keep the token under lock and key and use it if my phone isn't working as a backup.

Thanks again for all your help, and I do think this will be a benefit for patient care making this EPCS approach much easier.

By the way, Exostar has added a lot more slots for webcam identity proofing appointments. (Apparently failing the automated identity questions must be common)

My only option at first was to take a slot while on vacation. Now I was able to move to a more convenient day.

I think that LifeLock and other security companies pushed it right over to webcam. It probably should be anyway. One GoToMeeting, one webcam, get it done.

Fantastic, I did it a couple of times till I got it right, but as soon as the phone dings, slide Authy app down from the top and hit approve, so much easier, WOW!!!!
With all of the pain of the vetting process, I can see over time this will be much better for sure. The other ways are still easier than the Verizon way of having to type your name in every time and then the six digit code,this new way negates all of those extra redundant time wasting steps.

Cool. I am glad you like it. Now we have at least two doctors who are convinced.

Oh well failed my questions so will have a webcam interview in a couple of weeks, so my understanding is I show my passport or drivers license and my smiling face to someone from Exostar and they say yup looks like you good to go.
I wonder given that I have my reservations about the unproven mandate to do EPCS, should I unleash my highest level of sarcastic humor on-whomever is my interviewer?
Any harm during the process of letting out a quip such as "...damn glad I just updated my Photoshop program and bought that high-def color printer, oops maybe I shouldn't have said that."
Maybe someone should notify Exostar that they might have to just humor/tolerate that smartass from CT during his interview.

Again, just a reminder for something that may help. Just as we all studied for the various tests to get our license, studying for this process may make it easier.

The vetting questions come directly from Experian. There are many ways online to get your credit scrores free, and there should be a way to get each of the three free each year. At the worst, Experian charges $7.00 for a week, although you have to remember to cancel prior to seven days to avoid the ridiculous $21.00+ monthly.

When I went to obtain my credit information on Experian I was asked to answer the same types of questions. Two were simple. One was a question on how much a certain loan was. I didn't have it memorized, but I know it was in the $750 range. They had four choices, one of which was $650 to $720 and another which was $745 to $799. If I were told that one was definitely the answer, I would have gone with the latter. Turns out the answer was $725 so None of the above was correct. OK, total bullshit. But, this was in the credit report as well as online at my student lender.

If you have the website for Experian open, there may be questions you can easily answer from there.

Oh hell they should have just asked for my Lifelock info saved me some time.
One of my online banking sites periodically makes me verify my identity with similar questions, I have never got them wrong so why the apparent question issue with Exostar/Experian?
Wonder if anyone has mooned the webcam during the vetting process, maybe I'll be #1.

Well, first, if you are using LifeLock, you will automatically fail. It's supposed to kick you to webcam before you even start. Your banking questions are likely straightforward and not trying to trick you. If Exostar was your bank, you would likely change by now.

It's difficult, because you have a lot of people involved.

AC, Exostar, NewCrop and the DEA. Everything that Exostar is doing is mandated by the DEA. And, the security now is going to be a joke. But, it's much better.

But, it will get easier. Trump will probably abolish the DEA claiming it is the problem with the opioid crisis. Dammit, if they didn't talk about it, it would go away. And, Amazon will probably destroy most EMRs and solo practices.

In the meanwhile I'm enjoying wallowing in my displeasure

I did my webcam session successfully today using a chromebook with the webex app installed. It only took 5 minutues and the end goal is to get an eight digit activation code to type in newcrop.

Next was a frustrating 40 minutes trying to get switched from Verizon to Exostar from within the Newcrop admin tab.

I finally got to the status finalized, after entering my authy code successfully. However, When I go to e-prescribe I still get the verizon screens.

I will have to get some help from Amazing Charts on this one.

appreciate if you can post the 'tricky-step' solutions here Ken; perhaps I'll learn something and not curse as much or as loud when it's my time

OK, I reached out to Amazing charts regarding my account not switching from Verizon to Exostar, and Ryan at AMazing charts reached out to Newcrop who fixed the problem. It did not require any further intervention on my part and I tested it and it works fine. Using exostar will be smoother than with Verizon. I used the authy app (I set up the hard token as well).

Koby, I would say the webcam is the easier part. They read from a script and you say yes about 10 times to various agreements and then you hold your drivers license up to the camera and you are done in 5 minutes.

The trip up steps for me in new crop involved having a second staff member log in to newcrop from amazing charts and approve me. I did this and my status went to "Granted", I then logged back on and my status went to "finalized". However exostar wouldn't work and I think no amount of work on my end would have fixed it. SOmetimes newcrop has to manually intervene to flog their buggy software, so my advice would be to get Amazing Charts help if you get stuck as the problem is likely on newcrops end.

The overall process if there are no glitches with the vetting questions is very strange. It is like going from point A to point G, but going A to F to B to D to G.

There shouldn't be a place where you need to do anything with Verizon. When you switch to Exostar, Verizon is out of the picture. In fact, if you have more than one provider and all of you use Verizon, if you move to Exostar, they can no longer use Verizon.

There is this weird step where you have a list of users and only those who were approved in the past need to be verified. You can do it yourself (ssshhh!!!) by logging out from you, logging in to another provider, verifying yourself, then logging back in. Sounds weird, but easy.

The problem everyone is having is this. There are three players. Exostar, NewCrop and AC. Exostar is NOT going to do anything to help. NC isn't there for support, but they know the process 100 times better than anyone. AC learned from NC, and they should understand, but it is glad they are willing to go to NC.

If NC would remote in like they did with me, the entire process would take around 20 minutes, and you would be done.

Just an FYI: If you are approved and get Authy on phone and get your token connected, put the token away in a safe place. Make sure you don't do anything where you have to type in the code, i.e. token or opening Authy app. All you have to do is drag down the home screen, tape on the Authy bar (at the top and click approve). It makes the process even that much easier.

Here is my prediction. Right now, people fail and do webcam. More and more people do webcam, and the spots are filling up. Then, they still fail after passing webcam and need help. On February 8, 500 users will still be stuck without EPCS. I think AC should just set up the whole process right now and get it over with.