Home Forums Discussions Problems AC support must reencrypt .enc backup file before restoring

Hi all,

Is anyone else having trouble restoring their .enc backup files? I'm trying to restore an .enc file to a backup server and having difficulties.

Thanks in advance.

Gianni,
Yes, I had problems restoring an .enc file on version 9.1
It asked for my amazing charts website user ID and password and this didnt work, even though it worked on the website.

One cannot do this on own. One must get Amazing Charts Guardian Angels help. There is a new .enc conversion program they have that must be used.

Well...that presents a problem.

Our .enc file (inclusive of Imported Items) is close to 10GB, and we're a small practice. Many practices have .enc files that are much bigger, of course. To upload your .enc file to support could take the better part of a day, and that's assuming you have a fairly fast connection. So by the time all the back-and-forth is done, you could be down for two days - not feasible.

There has to be a better way?

Hi Gianni,

I have demoed v9.0, but I never tried a backup. I have not used or tried 9.1. But, I am beta testing v9.2, and I was just able to do a backup to an .enc file and then restore from it with no issues. Not sure what that means.

But, for the time being, I would recommend separating your Imported Items from the .enc file. This would solve you upload/download problem.

It would appear it is for the same reason. Whether it is the backup file or a 24 hour activation key, AC doesn't want AC being installed on a new machine either in your office or another office without their being aware of it.

I understand that this may be an effort to protect IP, but this is way too draconian.

I've been taking the .enc files offsite (as I should), and restoring the data on a backup server on a weekly basis just to verify the integrity of the data. This new measure makes that near impossible - it's not a change for the better.

I just tried yesterday restoring data to 9.1 from an .enc file and was a no go, support tried(on Sunday) couldn't do it either but he said no SQL certified techs were available on Sunday so am waiting for 1 this AM, will let you all know what happens.

Hi Koby,

Did you try restoring the .enc file to the same machine? If so, I'm not sure why that wouldn't work. A little unnerving, for sure.

If you tried restoring the .enc file to a different machine, that's definitely not possible w/o the support team.

Here is the answer I received, with ver 9.1 if you try to restore from an enc file from another machine or a thumbdrive it triggers a security concern and doesn't allow it to happen
AC support was able to do something to my file then I was able to do the restore.
They remarked as long as the enc file was made and stayed on the machine where you do the restore it should be fine such as from a D drive to a C drive restore, yes that makes it a little problem if you need to restore from a thumbdrive but luckily that database wasn't huge so didn't take too long for the file transfers to and from AC.

I don't quite understand this method. It would explain why I could do it easily in a VM that already had SQL on it. As far as the technique, it would make sense as it would keep one from sending it do another practice, but one would think that would be difficult given the license would belong to one practice. Although, you can use AC (or could) on a machine without an Internet connection (which would be a problem due to phoning home, etc. besides ePrescribe, etc.), but you were able to do that under Dr. Berman a while ago. But, you did have to check in with AC every few months and would still have to activate it.

But, what I don't get is that if you beta test, it won't install on a new machine without support giving you a 24-hour license key. Which would take care of the problem of the pirating. But, this is a huge problem. One just can't be held hostage via a backup file. So, that would mean that 8,000 practices who are not pirating have to go through this because of the others.

I have never worried too much about security/HIPAA stuff on my server. But, if the feds were really looking for issues, it would seem as though this would be a medicolegal issue if you were 24 to 48 hours or who knows if you were without patient data (due to an issue that we and AC know alreaedy know about).

I should chime in with this...

The reason we religiously restore (to another machine in the past) is because we've always had problems with the restore process in the past. Without a lot of consistency, some .enc files restore, while others do not. Sometimes the restore process goes to about 33% (my guesstimate) before failing, while other instances fail at around 90%. Interestingly enough - when it fails late in the game, the data *appears* to be all there.

This is unnerving, to say the least. That's why we would always test the integrity of the .enc file via the restore process. If you're not spot-checking your backup files every so often, I think you're doing yourself a disservice.

Everyone should take their backup files *offsite*. We do it once a week, and should probably do it more frequently. We got hit with Ransomware once, and w/o the offsite backup, we would have been in a world of hurt.

Seems to me that one of the main purposes of offsite backup is being able to recover from a machine failure (vandalized, burned, flooded or just plain dead computer). I find it hard to swallow that we would be unable to restore to a new machine. Can this be real?

Yes I agree these are all important points, I didn't mention that 1 of the 'options' I was given before support 'fixed' my enc file was to just pay for AC in the cloud. Suggestion or sales pitch? I've had to restore from an enc 3 times in my long time with AC, to not be able to do it until a Monday AM because of no SQL certified techs on for the weekend was bothersome and cut into my workflow.
Guess this issue(easy to restore without going through support) will need to be entered into the needed feature section of AC.

Sent in my request as a critical bug fix, lets see what response is returned.

Ok. If everything we are from support and we are experiencing is true and not fixable until a new version is out, I suggest we not panic until we get we get the story from Chris as to why and what the actual deal is, then we should calm down a little. I agree, if we are being told that a great option is the cloud and all else is true, there would be issues.

I don't think it matters whether it is an offsite backup or not. Until it is all resolved, I would suggest backing up the AC folder with a traditional backup program that is compatible with SQL our turn off its services prior.

Has anyone used another backup program to successfully restore 9.1?
Nah, would never panic when returning from vacation to find laptop fried and Monday morning rapidly approaching, LOL.
Support was very helpful at 8AM promptly Monday AM and luckily that enc file/database was not very large as it only was my nursing home and assisted living facility patients.
Also note when trying to install AC on a new computer had to get a new verification number from support wouldn't take my previous number, must be a new verification process where the code only good for 24 hrs.

Correct - I was told the install code will self-destruct in 24 hours. Cue the Mission Impossible theme tune here...

No, you can not use any other backup program to restore another proprietary backup. The temporary activation key is a good idea, although 48 hours makes sense. In most instances, you would be doing that move on a more temporary basis.

This is being done due to pirating. Take it as a somewhat good sign that AC has become so popular, it is being pirated now. Or that it is getting too expensive, lol.

Using the restore file as a way to stop pirating is not a good technique nor is it acceptable and who even knows if its legal.

But, until we find out more, what we can do is make backups in the traditional way. I have always felt and said so on here many times that the best and most reliable feature on AC is its .enc local backup process. But, that doesn't mean I don't have AC backed up in a hundred different ways. I have always encouraged everyone to consider their most important backup as an image backup of their main computer which is capable of backing up databases such as BackupAssist for server only or Macrium or others which specifically have modules that can back up SQL. This one should be disconnected daily plus rotated with another one.

While reading this thread I get the sense that some are backing up the .enc file to a computer location and/or just accepting the default. Waiting 24 hours for support (which is not acceptable) is still 100 times better than losing your data forever or hoping the $500 to $2000 (going up monthly) gets it back from ransomware.

I still wonder what would happen if EVERYONE sent their .enc files to support EVERY DAY and asked for validation or whatever they do. They would soon ask you wtf? But, what could they do? You pay for your support, they put this process in place. Until they limit the number of times you could use it, which would be another huge limiting step, upload away!

You know. Make backup after work. When finished, immediately upload to support and tell them it needs validation. They validate and download it back to you. That is now your backup for that day. Works for me. (that's the cliche -- not saying I am doing that)

I was joking a little bit above about sending the files every night. But, I do have two what I think would be good suggestions.

1. Off the subject a little. But for those that backup the II with their .enc backup, maybe before you go home do a quick manual backup with the II options off. I don't know how big everyone's would be, but my non II backup takes around two minutes. Even if it took ten, it may be good, to have a backup that could be restored to another computer in minutes (forgetting all of the above) and the II one could be restored later or copy and pasted.

2. Given that one of many issues that is key here would be that you wouldn't be able to restore quickly if you came to the office and found your main computer on fire. You could go ahead and do a pre-restore computer. Choose the next best computer you would use to be your temporary "main computer." Do a full install there. Obtain a license key and install it so it is a valid computer. Then remove the .xml file so there is no way to browse to it or turn off the SQL service. Or cripple it in a number of different ways as far as its being mistakenly used as the main computer. Then, if I am understanding all this correctly, you could restore there quickly. Unless the .enc files simply don't work at all without being converted. May save you the 24 hour activation key step. It's hard for me to get my head around all this.

Finally, I sent a long email to AC, specifically to Chris. So, I think we should give it 24 hours to see if they reply to at least explain it. I guess if we are going to complain about it, we should know exactly what we are complaining about and why.

It's always fun with AC.

And, don't forget to back up.

Good Afternoon......Hopefully I can shed some light on this subject which in all likelihood will spur additional "what if" scenarios. If so please feel free to post here and I'll reply as soon as I can.

This is completely unrelated to piracy. We are acutely aware of the importance of securing PHI and in order to comply with certain security guidelines we strengthened the encryption algorithm we use for the enc file in 9.1. As such, once you are on v9.1 you cannot restore an enc file from prior to 9.1 without the file being re-encrypted which must be done with a special in-house utility and hence the need for you to send in the file to CS, they will re-encrypt for 9.1 and return the file to you. The turnaround time for that will vary based on the size of the file and bandwidth. We really have no other options here...we cannot distribute the secret formula for users to do this themselves, it must remain in-house. Once you're on v9.1 it's business as usual, there is absolutely no difference in what you do then as you have in years past to backup and restore as all files created will use the new encryption algorithm.

Damn! That's so fun. No pirating? No intrigue?

Wow, that was easy.

Just to be clear on a couple of things since it popped in my head. First, is sending the AC backup file that needs more encryption a HIPAA violation on its own? Funny, how we overlook things in troubleshooting. Does this mean that everyone having an issue was trying to restore from an earlier backup. No one actually said, I was trying to restore a 8.6.4 file to 9.1, which would have pointed others and me in another direction. Mine worked not because I was using 9.2 on the same exact computer, but because it was 9.2 made by 9.2.

So, if I am hearing you correctly, backups made by 9.1 or higher are find and do not need to be uploaded to support to be re-encrypted.

One thing that maybe you could comment on or address is that we tend to get different well-meaning answers from different support techs. OR, we hear it differently and then it gets lost in translation.

Here is an example from above:

"They remarked as long as the enc file was made and stayed on the machine where you do the restore it should be fine..."

Reading this would lead one to believe that it has nothing to do with 9.1 .enc restore files but with the fact that it has to be on the same computer it was made. That was what lead to the pirating assumptions.

Thanks Chris. Sounds like this will be a non-issue soon.

No not true, in my case my .enc backup was from 9.1 was on a thumb drive and was taken from the machine I was trying to restore it to and it would not restore without sending it back to AC for the 'magic' program to allow it to be used to restore data to 9.1 build 254. Just sayin.
Also I tried reloading AC 9.1 onto that same machine which it had been on and functioning prior to the 'crash' and couldn't do it without getting a new ID number from support.
Could it be that since I had to get a 'new' ID number to even load AC 9.1 that the 'old' 9.1 enc file had an old ID number?
Can't AC 'identify the machines so that additional support and my time is not wasted getting new ID numbers, I mean Windows 10 reloaded using it's 'old' ID number no tech time required.

I doubt it is that. But, I don't know. I guess just keep posting questions. And Chris will answer them.

Koby,

What you're describing is not normal behavior so I can't explain your particular experience. I suspect it could be due to your "crash" which resulted in some corruption to your database. In particular the data elements the system looks for when you attempt to do an update or install. During a new new install or an update of AC, the installation program looks in the database for certain values to ensure you are authorized to to perform the install/update. If you're installing AC for the first time on a new server there is no database so you always need a key from CS to proceed. The key is not stored locally and is unrelated to the new encryption, it's simply a temporary key to let you proceed with the install/update. Existing users performing an update should never see the prompt unless they have some database corruption or their Guardian Angel Support has expired. If they do not have active GAS then they are not entitled to receive the new versions.


Bert..to answer your questions, the pre 9.1 enc files being sent in today to CS are HIPAA compliant as far as the encryption goes. We just made it better to stay ahead of the bad guys who seem to be getting smarter every day. In regards to the Support techs response...They are probably not thinking in terms of .enc file versions...it's extremely rare that the need arises for us to re-encrypt a file. They are speaking in terms of the "same machine" or server..The .enc file you restore must have originated from the same physical server from which it originated, or you need the secret sauce.

Chris the enc file was made prior to the 'crash' and eventually was used to restore the database anyway???

Chris can't it be that practice and a machine ID (motherboard or CPU identifier) be sufficient to load AC and Data without the cyberspace shuffle, works for Windows reinstalls.

If I'm understanding this correctly:

1. The file must be restored to the very same computer that generated the backup. This is where our hangup is. If a computer gets stolen, melts down in a fire, motherboard goes bad, etc. - it leaves us in a situation where we have to shuttle a potentially large .enc file back and forth. If the SQL techs aren't around, it could mean big downtime - potentially up to two days. That's too onerous a burden.

I understand the security concerns, but I'd much rather deal with a password or something along those lines.

Fortunately for Windows they don't have to deal with HIPAA.......This is the life we've chosen!

I suspect HIPAA is somewhat nebulous in the exact requirement for reinserting encrypted data, wouldn't the reasonable precautions argument say well yes this is Dr K's encrypted data and yes it is being loaded onto a machine that has been verified to be in Dr K's practice enough to past that test? I will of course claim some ignorance of the matter but think being HIPAA overzealous/paranoid opens up bigger potential roadblocks in patient care(which is the life I've chosen).
So am I to understand these latest security measures are 'we think this is a good idea' but not specifically mandated?
One thing I've learned from dealing with governmental regulatory agencies is don't say you are ever going to do more than mandated.

If I understand Conrad's comments above, it seems that once I upgraded to version 9.1, I can restore from an .enc backup without technical support. However, ?

I tried to move the main computer(peer to peer) for AC to a new computer, by installing 9.1 on the new computer and then using my 9.1 .enc file to move the databases. However, early in the installation of 9.1 on the new computer, I am required to input an account number. This has never appeared on any prior new installation of AC on the main computer. Is it now required that I contact tech support?

yes you will need to get a number from support that is good for 24 hrs and I suspect you will need to have AC support do something to your .enc file also

Yes..Database moves and new installs just got a bit more complicated in the interest of improved security. When you do an install or database move to a new server, for whatever reason, you need an installation key from CS and your .enc backup will need to be encrypted for the new server. The length of time it requires to transfer the .enc file is a factor of size and bandwidth...could be 30 minutes or many hours. If you use our off-site backup it's faster as we have access to the data with your key. We have techs on call over weekend to assist you. They do not need to be SQL experts to provide this service. We realize that this may be a bit inconvenient but voluntary database moves are a scheduled event and systems crashes/catastrophic events requiring emergency re-installs are quite rare. But in that event, it will take a bit longer to get you up and running than it had in the past.

John,

The install procedure is completely unrelated to the restore procedure. In order to install (or reinstall) 9.1 on any computer, you will need an install "key" from tech support. They key is only valid for about 24 hours, as I understand it. This is understandable as a measure of protection against piracy. No big deal here.

If you decide to deploy a new "Main" computer, you have to send the backup .enc file to tech support, where they perform some kind of black magic to unencrypt/reencrypt the .enc file to work with your new Main computer. So in addition to the encounter with tech support to get your install key, you'll have to shuttle your .enc file (perhaps *big*) to/from tech support. That's my hangup.

In the past, I could restore our .enc file to a different backup Main computer so that we could test the integrity of the .enc backup file. Now, the only feasible way to test the .enc backup file is to restore the file back to the live Main computer. This is generally not something we want to do, as the restore process isn't exactly bulletproof.

In addition, you obviously couldn't do this during office hours. It would have to be done during the weekend. So let's say that during a weekend restore process, it hangs (trust me - very possible). Now what? You have to contact the specialized SQL team. Problem is, they don't work on the weekends. Now you're in semi-panic mode. Come early Monday morning, you face the daunting task of shuttling a possibly large file to AC tech support. Better have *fast* broadband, and better pray that the .enc file isn't "corrupted" in some way.

OK, after reading the many posts, this is my take on the information. First, the posts are all very well written in the light of the amount of confusion this is causing. Chris, please keep in mind that we are dealing with about four people here out of, what, over 8,000 practices? I suppose an announcement on the board and/or in an email will need to take place, which is going to produce NUMEROUS questions, confusion and backlash. Also, no matter how well the upload/download works, there is a lot of history with support where many users don't always trust the quickness of the reply and the whether the support they are getting is good. Yes, it has improved tremendously over the past three months or more, but, again, there is a LOT of history here. In fact, one of the answers received up a few posts seemed to be contraditory to what we are hearing now.

Quote from Chris:

it's extremely rare that the need arises for us to re-encrypt a file. They are speaking in terms of the "same machine" or server..The .enc file you restore must have originated from the same physical server from which it originated, or you need the secret sauce.

I don't see how if you need to have the .enc file re-encrypted for all .enc files previous to 9.1 AND 9.1 (which would not be business as usual) will have to be re-encrypted as well on a new server or main computer. How could that be rare?

Quote from Chris:

Once you're on v9.1 it's business as usual, there is absolutely no difference in what you do then as you have in years past to backup and restore as all files created will use the new encryption algorithm.

This is from Chris' first post. If I am understanding this, and believe me, it becomes more difficult to understand the further we go, you can't use a 9.1 or higher .enc backup without re-encryption on a different computer. So, this is not business as usual as we used to be able to do that. I understand with previous versions, but it would seem that ALL v9.1 backups would be fine.

Also, what is the difference between data in your EMR, which can be read by anyone and the .enc file located locally?

Quote from Chris:

When you do an install or database move to a new server, for whatever reason, you need an installation key from CS and your .enc backup will need to be encrypted for the new server

This is just a quote which verifies that even a 9.1 .enc file would need to be re-encrypted.

My editorial:

This seems to be rather confusing and unnecessary. The file is encrypted as it needs to be. It would seem that if AC wanted to stay ahead of the bad guys, there could simply be a decision to start making backups with better encryption starting with v9.1, but not change anything previous. Eventually, everyone will move to 9.1 and this won't be an issue.

I don't quite understand why we can't move a database to another computer as long as we have our original license key. This isn't like Windows or Adobe, which needs to be on each machine, therefore, you have to purchase a license for each. AC runs with one machine acting as a database, and all of the other computers have just the program. So, I don't see why you can't install to another computer or every computer for that matter. If you have your original license key, you should be fine. If the CS 24 hour key is needed for new users at a new practice that makes sense. Just like after their 30-day trial period. But, I couldn't send my license key to someone else. It just wouldn't work when it phoned home. And, doing something like that would make my license null and void, and I would not be able to use AC, something no person in their right mind would do given the importance of the program. And, if they do, then they will likely face the consequences.

Chris, I think you made two changes at the same time and without notification of the users. (I don't think I saw anything, my apologies if there were). But, both of the changes are confusing, the .enc file is more so, but maybe one step at a time would have made more sense.

Personally, I would go back to the old system and then have all post 9.0 versions make a better encrypted backup. But, all previous ones should be grandfathered in and all post 9.0 .enc backups should work on any computer. I simply don't see how this isn't going to be a huge issue. Also, having your backup in the cloud is an option, but I think it will be looked up as being somewhat forced to do the online backups.

____________________
To everyone on the board:

I said this before, but it keeps coming up, so I will say it again. Until we get this sorted out, if you back up your II with your .enc file locally, that's great. You schedule it overnight, and you have the ultimate backup if you need to move your computer.

But, if you do this, I would recommend you do a quick(2 minute to 5 minute) manual backup before you leave or have a staff member do it first thing in the morning. Have two backups. That way if you have to do the upload/download, you will be using a 100Mb file and not a 30GB file. You can get up and running quickly and move your II with copy and paste or whatever.

Gianni & Bert have confirmed my worst fears. Any (even planned) reinstall or database move will need tech support to handle the encryption procedure. Which means downtime during work hours. Am I expected to make a backup, transmit it to AC, and then NOT use the program for "30 minutes to many hours", so my database remains unchanged?

My recent problem happened as an emergency the 'saving grace ' was that it was a Sunday afternoon, I could delay the process to first thing Monday AM and this database was reasonably small.
However thinking about the future any 'new' server will require 1) contacting AC to get a new verification number to load the AC program then 2) waiting till after completion of a days work ie after office hours to create a new .enc, then send that .enc to AC for the secret sauce so that the .enc can be sent back and used to restore the data to AC. Even if one is fortunate and gets a qualified tech immediately the process stinks of pain in the [censored].
There has got to be a better process for registered users to utilize other machines, have portable offsite backups that can be used when needed without holding a seance.
Thanks for your thoughts Bert

I hope everyone understands the gravity of the situation. We once had our AC Server go down due to a motherboard failure. We had an emergency contingency plan in place, and we were back up and running in 30 minutes - no exaggeration.

Under the current scenario, we'd be looking at perhaps a day, and maybe even two. And that's assuming that your .enc backup file can be trusted, because testing the .enc file on a regular basis is clearly impractical.

Can anyone afford this kind of downtime?

I am completely baffled.
I was ready to move to 9.1, but now I am afraid to move.
6.3.3 works really well.
I don't even plan to do meaningful use or any other Medicare scam. I may have to drop Medicare, or retire altogether.
This is getting completely out of hand. We have lost the profession of medicine.

To be honest Tom, I am as well. At this point, your best bet is to read and reread Chris' posts. Somewhere it seems to say that a 9.1 backup works the same as the backups in the past. But, it doesn't seem to be the case if you try to restore to another machine. At least I thought I read that as well.

I don't think staying at 6.3.3 is any better than being on 9.1. Being on 9.1 shouldn't make you have to reencrypt compared with 6.3.3. My understanding is that when you go to install AC on a virgin machine, it won't recognize certain parts of the database that it would if you reinstalled or upgraded on your current machine. Therefore, it will say, "I need the 24-hour code from support. And, your .enc backup isn't encrypted enough.

Another thing I don't understand is the following. Supposedly the .enc files that you currently have backed up: one, two, twenty aren't encrypted well enough. But, say you don't try to restore, they just sit there. Then that would mean you have .enc backup files on your computer or external drive or at home, that aren't fully encrypted. What is the difference between trying to restore them or having them on your computer? What changes if you move the .enc file to another computer.

This makes no sense. I am so confused. I am fine with needing another key. Even that bothers me, because if I need to move to another computer in a hurry, I am in trouble. But, there is where I suggest strongly to go ahead now and install onto another machine. Don't use it but have it activated. But, there has to be a way for the .enc files to be restorable without being uploaded. Why not say, you are on 9.1 and now all backups have better encryption, because v9.1 is capable of making .enc files with better encryption. I guess the other part I don't understand is can you do a backup on 6.3.3 and then immediately restore it?

Again, I am more confused now more than ever.

It's almost like AC did something with increased encryption and in doing so it caused problems with restoring to another machine. So, they came up with this to fix it. I'm sorry AC. I just have no idea. Now, that Tom has joined the thread, we now have six people who seem to not only be aware of it, but are confused, frustrated and are talking about it.

The bottom line, and I think I speak for everyone, is AC has to find a way to go back. They have to find a way so we don't have to upload our .enc files. We need to do a backup like every other backup program does and allow it to be a restorable backup. Am I missing something?

And, Tom, I would change the word "even" to "ever". I never did MU, and I never will. And, as long as I can, I am not doing MIPS or MACRA.

Add me as #7 !

Gene