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And I bet they Everyone gets a trophy. Just for showing up. They are all SPCECIAL!

YEP!

And, no tryouts.

Well, let me interject a view from the guy who probably has the yearbook title of "most likely to let the other guy drown."

I have a daughter in the 8th grade. She is not much of an athlete, but has played on several sports. Her coaches have let everybody play, even in close games. When I sit through these games, I see other coaches who only play their best players, even if they are ahead by 30 points in a basketball game.

So, I'm sure their coach can beat their chest and go "oompah, oompah... we won by 40 points!" But half their kids didn't play. What does that teach? Greed, maybe?

Maybe that's cool. Maybe sports fans think the whole point of a game is winning. I think the whole point is playing. It is supposed to be fun.

Actually, very good points David.

I agree with David - have seen teams where a kid sits on the bench - they are 30-40 pts ahead and still the coach is yelling, jumping up and down and not letting the kid play, Have also seen coaches tell kids to stay home during a tournament because whoever shows has to play.

Does teach kids something - adults "suck" and do not grow up like them.

The best coached teams my kids have been a part of are the ones that rotate their players and teach the fundamentals, that is what it is about especially at the grade school level.

Ha, those kids hold grudges against those coaches too. They come back twice as hard ha. At least I did. Beat that coach with the game winning steal and free throw during the finals in the next season. He was so mad ha.

I didn't get benched because I was that bad. I was playing in the next division up where all the kids were three years older and several inches taller ha.

I remember playing boys's club football. I remember when I intially was one of the ones sitting on the bench. Now, it changed when I was moved from offensive line to defensive line (that's turned out to be my shining spot) but yes, I do remember everyone got a chance to play. Even in close games. And you'd better get dirty...shows you were trying hard (i guess). But we didn't all get awards. I remember that fact pushing me to strive to improve. This was especially true in my Junior Duckpin Bowling League. I remember how good it felt, and how good other felt, when we/they improved and all of a sudden your name was listed as "2nd High Strikes". When everyone gets an award just for showing, it really takes away from those who attempt/succeed in excelling, and seems to lower the motivation for those who are not. This can then move over into other parts of life.

I think the best case scenario I have seen with the grade school athletics, is when you have two like minded coaches that rotate the players and emphasize team effort and fundamentsls, and the kids learn respect not only for themselves, but their fellow teammates and opposing team mates. I think we do a disservice to our kids by not keeping score at sporting events, because the earlier in life you learn how to lose or win gracefully, the better off you are, like Wayne says it does translate to other parts of life.
I also have to agree with David, especially in the younger kids, you got to have fun, and you have to learn team play, and when a team with suboptimal talent but better coached, beats a hot shot team, especially if your kids involved, sure makes it fun.

My youngest graduated from college last year, so I have just finished about 20 years of watching my kids play sports at all levels. (True confessions: it used to be I heard from my family "are you on that soccer blog on the computer AGAIN"; now it is "are you on that EMR blog on the computer AGAIN"). I could regale you for hours with opinions on the "play to win" vs. "play to have fun" controversy. My conclusion is that both have their merits; it is all about being clear about the expectations. The coach or preferably the league needs to be upfront and consistent about the philosophy. The issues usually come when the policy is one thing and the practice is something different.

The most interesting scenario we had occured when our oldest wanted to play Little League Baseball. After tryouts, the league was formed, there were about 14 or so kids "left over"after seven teams were formed, but get this each team had only MINIMUM number of players allowed under LL rules. The parents of the left out kids went to the league. We had found an experience, enthusiastic coach and asked to form another team. They refused.
It was obvious that the existing coaches didn't care about the kids, they wanted to win. As LL requires that every player play, That wanted only the minimum number of the best kids, with a pool of replacement players in the event one of their chosen kids dropped out.
I was furious. Did some research. There had actually been a book published about the LL and parents. It described the attitudes of the those coaches to a T,
In that kind of situation, the adults are living vicariously through the kids, reliving their youth. It's not that they want the kids to win, it is that they want to win.
For the kids, of course it is more fun winning. But it is also more fun playing than sitting on the bench.
Not all youth sports coaches are like that, but you have to watch out for that over age has been who is using your kid the regain his glory days.

Can I bring up the little league team from Billings Montana last year as a case in point??? I don't understand the rules of little leaque championship play, but when Montana beat the California team, but then got beat on rematch didn't quite seem right to me.

So, Roger, exactly how diabolical do you feel?
Take a look at the schedule, find the date that the two "top teams" (or most obnoxious coaches) are playing each other. Schedule a very attractive event that day, in conflict with the game (maybe a party at a local video arcade) and innocently invite kids from both teams. Watch the coaches go through the roof as they wonder if they will have to forfeit because they don't have enough kids to play.
I know, I am terrible to even think this way. I have actually seen it happen.

Yes, a common hazard is the coaches who use the kids to relive their glory days (or to remake a memory of glory that never actually existed). Also common are the parents who push their kids to play for the same reason.

Interesting how so many of us have common experiences with our kids' sports.

As doctors, I think our "academic" background makes it difficult for us to understand what motivates the typical parents and coaches described by Jon, Jimmie & Roger above. One of my kids was a good swimmer, but her motivation for being on her high school team (and off-season club team) was the team spirit and friends, as well as the excitement of competition. Our family never considered "sports" a path to anything, but many, even the majority of the other parents felt differently. They honestly were thinking of college scholarships or even further, unrealistic or not.

I remember her coach speaking to me once about my daughter skipping practice for an afterschool finals review session. It was obvious that he and I were from different planets.

All I hear from the parents here in the office is how much politics there are in kids sports.

Reminds me of when the William's Sisters were being criticized for not playing enough tennis because they were college students and the tennis orgs wanted them to quit persuing their education (even though they were winning when they did play, even the major events). Now, even though they shouldn't need to work for financial reasons, they do have more options of second career since they did finish.

Or suppose that, instead of being tennis champions, they had just maybe reached the top 30 or so. Then you are 30 years old, injured and can't play at the level to earn a basic living anymore. But you quit that waste-of-time school stuff, or just studied "basket weaving." Hmmm. Now what do you do? Maybe you can get a job as a school coach?

A classic example of one generation's success & aspirations being passed down to those they influence.

Wow! I can only go by my experience. We played baseball, football and basketball DAILY from 7am until 7pm. Rode our bikes to the playing fields. We didn't have T-ball or T-league. It started at Little League. It was a four year Little League system. There were tryouts. If you were good enough, you made the teams. I don't remember, but most did. My first year on Rexall City Drugs (took ePrescribe then), I played right field, and my main job was to drop fly balls. I complied and was 100% that year with a batting average of .024. Mind you I had made the starting lineup. The next year, I moved to left field and caught around 75% of the balls and batted around 200%. Playing all year at home, I moved to shortstop and pitcher and made the all star team. The next year almost no errors, batting average of nearly 750% and around 15 home runs.

Meanwhile, other kids chose tennis. Some practiced three hours a week, some three hours a day. Guess which ones made it to the top rankings. Same with golf, etc.

Then intermediate league for two years whee I digressed to right field, but then back to second base, where I played for four years in high school.

We have a 12-year-old in our practice (#100 -- look her up) who will be at the National Spelling Bell. Maybe we should let everyone go and use words like "yesterday."

Everyday, I do sports physicals, and I listen to their lungs while they play with their DS or Angry Birds with a BMI of 32. Should they make the team and rotate around to 3rd base?

CAVEAT: Just my example. Please don't squash me. I don't particularly think that either way these carry over to life.

WOW, where do I even Begin here with both of these topics in one thread; and no not the DNS blocking one, Attitude and the Sports Culture added in... BTW, everything I write has spelling and grammer issues and a 1,000 "Danoso's" (NCIS, Smacks upside the head) to the first grammer or spelling cop who jumps my case over it... I have dyslexia and ADD so I need to be "Accomidated"... :-)

Anyway, its interesting here with a broader spread of docs but when I tried to "Bitch" even the least bit about all the attitude we used and at times still do get around here over at the IMP chats I would get my bones jump for not being patient centered enough, and perhaps we are not allowing them to get all of their needs met in one visit and the like. I'm all for attempting to take good care of people and really being their first stop, most trusted, feels comfortable turning to us when times get tough Primary Care office, but at times it really is about the PATIENT and what kind of baggage they bring with them way before they ever darkened our waiting rooms.

Now here in Central NY, Syracuse I usually related this to a good part of Homie, Hood and NYC attitudes rubbing off be it from downtown 'Cuse, the general negative social crap that comes with mainly Basketball and Football, again more inner city and hood like... But it is interesting watching it take over in so many places that are fairly rural or at least modest Suburban. And at the same time right here we have a NYC doc reporting that she does not get a heck of a lot of negative attitude right there where I grew up too, Downstate (Da Bronx, another haven of Normalcy, NOT) and I think that actually says something about it too...

I see so many suburban kids most White but some of the others too, all attempting to act way more "Hood" like, the clothes, the walk, the chains and Tats too than they really ever were or are.... I know right now if I took the majority of these kids and plopped their butts down unannounced (Scotty are you ready with the transporter?) in the middle of 161 St. way late at night on a non-Yankee night, with all the creeps floating in and out of Night Court no less the regulars who live down there, these kids would Pee all over themselves and would be lucky to last til the morning light... And yet they are all messed up and acting and adopting a culture that really is not theirs as though it means something and is valid... When in actuality the only folks it really is valid for are those kids, growing up under the worst of conditions, rats and poverty, messed up parents and the like and all the other problems that plauge and real inner city kid fighting, really fighting for daily survival.

And the funny thing is those that are really from "The City" are like naturally raised preditors who even the Mountain Lion or the Bear, African Lions and Tigers, Nobody "Starts $H!T who doesn't really have to start it"... Because they know, 1) there is always someone out there crazier or has a more lethcal weapon or skills 2) even if you win you could lose and walk away wounded enough that you won't make it.... So much of it really is posturing even in the wild. And last, those that know that they are pretty fast, skilled, have a bad@$$ weapon, or are near the top of the food chain, don't feel compelled to prove it all the time and again they understand the first two parts to begin with, that when combined it makes sense that sometimes being Cool is the largest sign of superiority of all... You know you've got it if and when you need to, have to show it.

I think that so much of the Showboating and other "I'm the Biggest and the Baddest" that is exploited and over done, repeated over and over again on the likes of ESPN and Fox and all the rest is one of the main reasons that kids grow up so rude and self centered and it is just another great reason why I continue to prefer having my kids exposed to the culture of Ice Hockey where all of the guys give modest, humble and or confident, almost rehearshed since college and juniors answers that are respectful of themselves and their opponents. It is the very rare occation where hockey players or teams get into pissing matches in the media digging into one another and creating what we refer to as: "Bulletin Board" material and moments... The headlines and clippings that the other team and coaches are going to post, tape up in the locker room to work a little bit of extra intensity and anger into their guys to motivate them that much more.... Hockey Players don't skate away after every check or hit, regardless of how hard or how much the other guy had his head down and got his clock cleaned out, and ShowBoat it up for the entire rink be it at home or on the road... Yes their have been a few but most of those eventually seem to get weeded out as it is just not part of our "external" public face for the rink and audience... I'm sure when its just the guys some smack or garbage is spoken and exchanged but that is just "What is said in the Locker Room Stays in the Locker Room". See the movie "Mystery Alaska" for the punishment of breaking such codes and protocol.... Hysterical. Yes we do challege one another and at times their is some trash talk, but it is actually illegal at the youth levels if it gets too out of hand with large game misconducts, Majors to be served with them and even our worst a Match Penalty. Both a game or a match comes with an automatic Game Suspension for at least the following game too. Racial and Ethnic slurs, Cursing and the like are not taken kindly and if heard and can be traced to a specific player, that guy or gal is in a heck of a lot of trouble, and hot water with their coach most probably too.

Lastly on a similar concept here I wonder if these these things are influence at least shorter tempers and self entitlment the idea of much more availability of all sorts of media which tends to distort and show not so Normal behaviors and attitudes.... We now have "artists" who do things simply because to some extent it has all been done for the most part especially when we are talking about wardrobes and choices of acting and behaving on stage... You've got to top that last person who dressed in florescent panties with pasties or every other word was F this and F that.... Iggie Pop jumping into broken glass chest first was like 30 years ago already. I look at like Lady GaGa and I just want to laugh go Gag Gag regardless of the fact that she might actually have a voice worth listening to. And again this is the Mass Media, Time Warner, Disney, Murdock Media days now...

Where as again some of us raised our kids on Good Music and Rock and Good Theater and decent movies and YES as suggested here, we were one of the last families to finally get a game box and it was WII based not X-Box very intentionally for the milder content and more active interface at the time of purchase a few years ago... And our kids were some of the last to get DS's and we watch which games the get for either. We watch what they do on-line which for the most part they have reasonable taste for the most part anyway. My son is looking for Planes and Titanic stuff including Cool self splitting and sinking models, Pet Snakes eating the prey and our daughter mainly watches listens to music videos of semi-reasonable if not even very good stuff (and yes she listens to modern stuff, not our stuff for the most part) She Loves Evanescance which even I like Banging my head to half the time, with the hard crunchy guitar lines and her lyrics actually Mean Something about life and it experiences....

It's not easy but it can be and should be, must be done.... now granted how much of their basic tastes and likes are semi-hard wired seeing who their creative and and least half intelligent parents are.... We are a hockey family we are a creative arts music family and we are a family with some amount of modern classic culture for the theater, movies, music, sciences and mechanical things and love of animals and nature without being completely over the top about it all either.... Fishing Jeeping, hiking, science and nature centers...

I also think that Technology itself has changed a lot of us and changed our expectations... Everything is just "There"!!! Want to know about this or look up that schedule or map or instructions, simply do a few mouse or stillus clicks and points and BOOM, there it is, there you are... That kind of immediate, instant gratification and constant "Something" always happening or always ON, has got to shape your neural connections and pathways no less your actual perceptions of time, no less your Expectations of having what you want or think you need, at your finger tips all the time, anytime almost no matter where you are... The internet and all its connections are in the woods or at the fishing hole with you as much as they are in our ultra connected homes.... Want a new movie for tonight or an old re-run, boom there it is....

And so when life and reality can not keep up with this new learned set of expectations those that perform services and actually do "Things" like repair cars, HVAC, build things with our hands, Heal the Sick or Injuried the bar has been set by the rest of our culture way too high for what the reality of the situation can hold or give, produce... Not every repair can happen today or in an hour or two, not all parts are immediately available and not all disease states can be controlled, modified, cured and there is not always a "Pill" one can take to simply make the problem go away.... Much like what happened and is happening in my old industry of performing arts in both the theater as well as in movies too. The more theater Magic and the more special effects and CG in the last couple of movies, the next Science Fiction movie that depicts space travel or aliens better, more extreme or more realistic well than that is the new bar and the new expectation to at least match if not even beat it, top it.

I'll quit here but I want to tell you all about the Best season my son and I shared and all the wild and crazy @$$hole parents doing some of the worst cr@p I have ever seen and yet how it can all go so well, if and when a few good people all come together and refuse to allow those low lifes to ruin it for everyone else and we hold our kids to obtainable standards of good sportsmanship and behavior, team unity and spirit, work together as coaches and teammates, and not allow ourselves or our kids to become negative and start the downward spiral that comes with it.... It was tough and at times extremely challenging and it was hard to really believe that there was light at the end of the tunnel... But we all bought into it, parents and players, and the entire coaching staff too.... and boy what a great last two months and finish. The season nobody wanted to have end or finish. A season that left you almost in widthdrawal and slightly depressed after having such a ride and having it disappear almost a fast as a great hard shot and one of my son's great glove saves and a whistle for a face-off.... And so much of it is owed to this one very nice, great man with high expectations of good attitude and character building leads to good players, good teams and great things that can happen. In all honesty, I think he and the kids even suprised himself...

Gotta split and get out of here already... Have a great night...

Paul

I don't really understand how it moves over into other parts of life. Suppose it depends on your parents. I can see how having to work hard to win can, but OK so you don't make the team. What do you learn from that? Well, maybe you don't get the job. So, you have already learned you weren't qualified or the "coach" looked over you. Or, what if you do great in college but don't get into medical school. Can you rely on not getting on the football team.

I just don't think it is that cut and dry. Maybe take all kids and have a rule where they have to play at least one inning. Mind you, next year, maybe they can work hard enough to move into more innings.

Ya see I believe that Ice Hockey has the answer as compared to all of these other sports that kids compete at, although I hear (not being involved myself) that Soccer has a similar way of breaking the kids up.

In hockey we have "House" which at one point when there were less rinks and associations, leagues literally meant like a "Resident" it was for teams that stayed "In House" that one rink, association and the teams were all of the kids how joined up, evaluated at the beginning of the season for a couple of nights with rating charts and run thru drills and some scrimmage, to then have the coaches with an administrator basically run a "Draft" from top to bottom and reversing the order now and again, and even reviewing the rosters to make sure that all of the teams were as evenly matched as possible. As the kids get a bit older this gets easier as we start to know the kids who return again and again... This is like what most of you consider "Little League" you pay, you play and that is sort of what it should be and when done really well it really can work out great, you've got to keep the morons away from it and make sure they don't run house the way the top AAA travel teams are.... But in house the kids really should basically rotate thru evenly and all get a chance to develop. And one thing we have learned at USA Hockey and Hockey Canada, that sometimes the kids who look great younger don't always make it as they grow older, and at the same time, some kids really do take longer to find themselves and if given some time, many times it is those darker horses that actually do come from behind and start eating the league up and become some of your top players... It is wrong to overly track them especially at the house level, that is what house if FOR for developing the kids and hopefully having some of them learn and develop enough to move up to the more competitive levels of AA or AAA travel hockey....

And that is where we have Real try-outs, not evaluations but real competitive try-outs and again the morons can ruin this with selecting his kid or your kid regardless of ability or there were enough kids to bump the other kid who was put into the line-up on politics and the like, happens WAY too often. But at least we have the fun, and yet still very competitive and high energy house situation, which really can and does act as a feeder system for the travel teams. And the AA are feeders for the AAA teams and many of those triple A teams are just a complete food fight of egos and other garbage that it is almost certainly better to have most kids do double or house and stay away from the triple unless your kid really is THAT GOOD...

And with travel comes the understanding that this is competitive and that the coach is expected to run his team the best way he sees fit and to WIN as often as possible. And if that means riding his horses all the time, then so be it that is his choice and if he shorts his bench and some kids ride the bench that is his choice too. I still don't completely believe in this even at the travel level as I believe hockey is a great team sport and if your kids really do put out as hard as they should, then you should need at least 3 full lines and two or three pairs of Dee to keep everyone putting out over 100% each and every shift. Now you might have better shadows and better Penalty Killers, better Power Play lines and guys but many times you can divide that up and give each kid a badge and role to own and wear proudly on his chest because that allows you to coach more effectively and more strategically, so you still don't have to be such an idiot about it, running two lines over and over again and wearing your top lines out and keeping the other kids from learning developing and perhaps one day becoming your next great player... Great shot blockers and penalty killers can lead a team many times better than any single sniper can. Every team needs some hard nosed "Lunch Pail" kind of players to work hard, tie up the other teams good players and neutralize them to then allow you to hopefully counter punch with your top line against their 3rd line that wasn't as well developed and was more myopically taught and coached.... And at the end of the game hopefully your team will have more gas and more team spirit left on their bench and in their gas tanks too.... because you shared the work load more evenly and you have three pretty decent lines that can all go out there and get the job done....

Not everybody can be the best shake and bake stick handler and sniper but almost any healthy athletic kid can work hard and skate hard, and use his head to play smart and shut down the opponent and perhaps get some nice dirty goals by forechecking in their face to force mistakes and turnovers and crazy all messed up on their end plays in front, crashing the net to make the other guys life harder.... And that keeps your snipers and talented ones from resting on their butts thinking their stuff don't stink either.... Now these other guys are out there causing trouble and turn-overs and driving the other guys nuts, so now they too have to keep skating hard, working hard, get their noses dirty and not simply be full of themselves "Stars"..... Done right it really can and does work....