Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Server interface question

Whoa...RAID discussions! I do love talking about RAID.

It simply isn't as simple as a RAID0 will "smoke" a RAID1. While it is true that given the same circumstances or setup a RAID0 can outperform RAID1 it is mostly due to bandwidth as you say. But, of course, the more drives you have in the RAID0 will affect your write time. RPM is more of a determing factor in hard drive performance with 10,000 RPM drives in a RAID1 blowing away a RAID0 with 7200 RPM. Of course, that same RAID0 with Velociraptor WD drives would outperform the RAID1. A good RAID controller will satisfy two reads, one from each disk from a mirror. RAID0 is generally not used for critical data, databases, etc. but for very large files such as seen with video.

One never has to take a RAID5 offline if a disk goes bad. This is one of the advantages of RAID5. You simply plug in another drive and it rebuilds. If you have a hot spare, this is automatic. If you have a hot swappable, then you are in luck as you just throw it in. The formula for RAID5 is always N disks - 1 for space.

Adding a drive to a RAID5 does not make a RAID6. A RAID6 requires a controller than can support RAID6. RAID6 can lose two drives before it loses data and can afford to lose a drive while the array is being rebuilt without any data loss. RAID6 does not use two drives for parity. The first error-correcting drive is parity. The second form of error correction uses a Reed-Solomon code to implement Galois field algebra. This is why it requires a controller with more sophisticated computational capability. RAID6 disk space will always be N - 2 drives.

It generally is true that a RAID0 > 5 > 6 > 1 for READS, but it is not that simple for writes. RAID1 will often outperform RAIDs 5 and 6 depending on block sizes and write implementation.

RAID performance, implementation and what configuration to use will always be debated.

There is always ONE principle which guide my implementations: protect the data with the minimum amount of down time.

I get that by using two different RAID Setups. I have added a patch to my OS before and had to reinstall the entire OS.

With my RAID 5 array, I have both hot swap & hot spare. The array automatically brings the hot spare online and sends me an email to let me know a drive has failed.

I can restore my OS to my last Friday Image in less than an hour. I can protect my data by using my raid 5 Array.

I get want I need, speed for the OS and protection for the data.

I should have not assumed that gkfahnbulleh was building a RAID 6. You can certainly use a RAID 5 with an additional hot spare.
One thing is the number of drives does not make the RAID, it is the formatting and method to save the data.

I do not disagree with your set up gkfahnbulleh, I think you have a particular attention to security and data safety but I am not sure that the average user would need that much. I am set up in a 1.5 provider (1/2 time NP) with 3 additional users on the local network. Just a simple RAID 1 with good back up is enough for me for my data. The hospital I work for provides to the server services, we attach to the domain remotely (which I do not like).

If one of your RAID 5 drives fails then you are at risk for data loss since any additional loss of drives will be catastrophic. You should rebuild your array right away with that loss of the drive. If you continue to use the array without restoring it you are asking for trouble. Assuming that the hard drive failed because it was bad or defective then continuing to use array may be OK. However if the failure occurred because the controller is bad, case kicked over, coffee spilled on the case or the power supply spiked the hard drive then continuing to use the array is inviting disaster. You have to look at the server and make sure that everything is OK. You do not just continue to use the server without knowing what is going on. You can rebuild while in use, it is just matter of what risk you want to take.

As for the throughput of the RAID implementation a RAID 0 will have faster performance but not necessarily application performance. This is a theoretical discussion. With RAID you certainly have to compare apples to apples. A RAID performance is separate from the hard drive performance. If you want ultimate read results get a solid state drive. I am more use to the consumer desktop arena where a RAID 0 works faster. In smaller transactional data writes like to a database then the performance of a RAID 5 will suffer compared to a RAID 1 set up. I wonder if the choice of a RAID 5 will impact the performance of the server to more significant degree than the use of a RAID 1. From my brief reading on the subject smaller transactional data writes will suffer in a RAID 5 set up because of the parity writes. Of course a high performance RAID controller may negate some of these problems.

I do not have enough knowledge or experience to recommend one over the other but I would probably just use a RAID 1 set up with a very strong back up. The problem is that the more hard drives you use the more likely a failure is to occur. Also the use of 6 drives in a single machine certainly draws a lot of power and heat that is not properly managed will damage the equipment over time. I my opinion the average single office system with a couple of providers and staff 10-15 would not need such an enterprise set up with RAID 1 on the OS and RAID for data. If I were to do that I would attach a separate server with the data on the RAID 5 rather than one monolithic server.

The choice of RAIDs is not as much as performance issue but rather a fault tolerance one and how much you want to place your data risk for failure.

Geoff

ThomGeo, in nearly 10 years of setting up networks with RAID arrays, I have never, repeat never, lost data due to hard disk failure. Have always used the RAID 5 with hot spare option. I have a client in Atlanta who has had his external RAID array running for 4 years. He has had 4 hard drives fail over that time. At no time, did he have to stop running his law firm because of that failure. I receive an email telling me driveX has failed and the hot spare has is now Drive X.

In each case, I was the one who called him to say "Drive X has failed" Please remove drive X and put in the spare drive" After that I would remote into that machine and configure the array transparently.

Now there may be configurations that work better; however, this configuration, has worked for me.

I have to agree mostly with George. I think from what he said, he has a hot spare, so boom he still has a RAID5 albeit slower until it rebuilds. And, he gets an email, and boom he puts in the hot swappable, and now he can lose a drive again.

I think for data, you can't beat a RAID5, because you can get a lot more space by adding extra drives. I wouldn't worry about the power and heat can be dispersed using the correct fans and the right amount of fans. I would never use two servers and all of those issues when one server would suffice.

As to the OS, a RAID1 still has more redundancy and you suffer very little performance loss while it is having the other drive rebuild.

In a personal computer, if you want better performancy, then add as many drives in a RAID0 as you wish. With RAID1, you can only use two drives, which would have to be large to have more data. Now, of course, what we haven't talked about is striped mirrors as in a RAID10, which is an excellent setup.

If one were going to use one RAID on a server mostly used for data and databased with some applications, they would be better off using RAID5 or 6, although 6 just isn't used that much. RAID10 is a very good compromise for everything.

So, in summary, I would recommend a RAID1 using 10,000 RPM SATA drives such as the WD Velociraptors (these are nice) with a RAID 5 for data. If you can go with a RAID6 even better.

The deal is coupled with GOOD data backup you are all set. What George is saying is one can always set up the RAID1 OS with the disks, whereas the data has to have good backups and a good RAID.

RAID53 anyone?

George, I have never said that your RAID 5 set ups proposed were bad nor did I say that they were doomed to fail eventually.

Geoff

OK just remember:


LoL

I will retract my comment about the RAID 6 and need to off line the RAID when reconstructing the RAID. Certainly there is some risk in reconstructing a RAID 5 while keeping it online, I have overestimated that risk. Obviously I need to update myself a little about this subject.

Geoff

BTW I got a iPod touch, what a cool product.

The IPhone is even cooler!

Well, I am sure everything is better offline, so you have a point. Plus, I am not sure about others, but my practice isn't mission critical to be up 24/7 like some businesses.

Tell us more about the iPod Touch. I just got an HTC Touch Pro Smart phone, and it is rather cool as well. Takes some getting used to. I haven't found the perfect cell/Smart phone.

Uh oh...now we are going to start the Smart phone/gadgets thread.

Bert, for the past 5 years I had used the best windows mobile phone available. It didn't matter what is was I had it. My last one was a Tilt that ran windows mobile 6.1. I had to reboot the thing at least once a day. But more than anything, the browser stinks. I was able to download the webkit based SkyFire mobile browser and it made the phone bearable.

About 8 weeks I switch to an iPhone. This is the best mobile device I have ever owned. Notice I said "mobile device," and not phone. The user interface is magnificently intuitive. The software is stable, and the browser is excellent.

From my iPhone I can remote, I can ftp, I can send/receive email, and just about thing IT wise I need to do.

So what is it missing? It's missing the higher resolution screen of the Sony X1

A carrier other than AT&T.

I totally agree about the iPhone. My work gave me a blackberry, what a piece of junk. It took me 30 minutes to figure out how the ringer worked (and I have a moderate level of tech ability). For the longest time I would miss calls because the phone would "chime" once when someone called. After a while I figured out that the phone has two modes - in holster and out of holster. Apparently the phone with the use of some magnet and the official holster can determine which mode to switch into. Once I got the proper case things worked better. What a maddening experience.

You just do not hear of problems like this with an iPhone. I started looking for an alternative device. I demoed an iPhone, what a cool device. Easy to use, relatively useful browser, and good applications that are fun and innovative. I certainly like the Shazamm app that can hear a song and then pull the information about that song. There was also a program that can map your friends iPhone location to your google maps and you can get their location (of course they have to agree to this). There are just not apps like that on the MS platform (palm has just died although the pre looks promising however it is just too late). Steve has really pulled a rabbit out of the hat with the iPhone/touch platform. Where I live the ATT service is Edge only (and barely that) so I purchased an iPod touch so that I can at least pretend like I have an iPhone.

I am so disappointed with the MS Mobile OS. I have used these products starting with Pocket PC 2002 and up. I was lucky if the device turned on regularly. I had to keep pocket books on hand for backup while on call as a resident. After a while I just quit using the PDA and stuck to the books. The apps on the windows are buggy and not reliable. The poorly implemented DRM (or rather multiple DRMs) just killed the ability of the apps to work consistently. For example I installed Skyscape for the 5MCC and ICD look up. I then installed Mobipocket for the MDConsult and then installed some other apps. After a while my machine is booting with several apps in the background performing updates and license check. The apps were buggy and were hard to install and would clog my internet connection everytime I booted for several minutes (about as bad as Norton Update). Do not even get me started on activesync....

When I started with my iTouch, I loaded the app store and just installed applications. They installed and worked immediately without trouble. You just can not do that in the Windows Pocket/Mobile environment. I am not use to such convenience. Of course the iTunes app store is a two edge sword since apple has total control over what gets put in: no Skype, Flash, Adobe reader, FireFox, or any application that may compete with their other product or services. At least with Windows there are no such restrictions. But even with the "openness" of the Windows platform, the poor implementation of the platform and difficulty of application installs just kills the product.

I thought about a HTC touch since that is the only one that will work in my area. It looks good but I afraid that it is underpowered for a Windows Mobile device. I am tired of Windows Mobile, time for the trash.

I wish I could get an iPhone but I will settle for the iPod touch for now.

Geoff

Again, AT&T. Now, this isn't putting down AT&T, in general, it just relates to me. Here USCellular and Verizon are the only networks that are reliable.

Even with an unlocked phone and a SIM card, one is stuck with very little alternatives here. The iPhone, however, is tied to AT&T. I don't believe it can be unlocked. The cell phone business is a complete rip off. These phones should all be unlocked and one should be able to use any network. I have a Sharp TV. I can use cable, Dish or DirecTV. It is not like I have to use Roadrunner, because I have a certain TV.

Also, if I could use iPhone, I wish they have iPhone Business. They probably never will, because Apple tends to cater to the crowd that likes all of the entertainment stuff. I cringe at having youtube on my phone. You can't even find a smartphone without a camera. I would buy the first fairly good phone that advertised, "Hey, no camera." Even my HTC has music, camera, this and that. That was where Blackberry had its market, but now even they have moved in a more entertainment direction.

Thanks, fellows. I love this discussion. I have been contemplating getting a smart phone but know nothing about them. Keep up the comparisons. I am mainly interested in getting something which I can also use as a modem for my laptop when I travel. I currently use a Verizon wireless card but, since I really don't travel that much, it seems too expensive to justify. It would be nice to just be able to combine into one monthly bill. Anyone with any ideas?

Leslie

Bert, the iPhone can be unlocked to use on any carrier. As a matter of fact, Apple released a hack that does just that. When it comes to software on the iPhone there is quite a lot of productivity and medical apps on there.

Leslie, I was able to use my HTC Tilt as a wireless dongle for my laptop. I believe Tmobile also carries an HTC phone with the capability to do the same.

I actually think there are several that will. Verizon makes reference to several of their phones having the ability on their web site but they definitely do not elaborate. Apparently they connect via USB cable. I expect I will have to make a trek to the Verizon Store.

Leslie

Loopt I believe. They make it for the Android based HTC G1 and Blackberry also. I'm optimistic about the Android platform. I also really like the Iphone, but Apples strict control on its products irks me. The G1 has a nice touch screen and what looked to be a decent browser, but it doesn't come off as nice because the screen is smaller than the Iphones. But if you like those mini-keyboards you might find it usefull; just probably not for medical software.

I hope you're right as I collect smart phones, but I just ran across this article online:

http://tinyurl.com/att-iPhone-locked-still

Leslie,

Here is some food for thought based on my dropping probably over $2,000 on cell phones over the past three to four months. Still have them, and the SIM cards allow me to use a couple, but even SIMS won't let you use any phone on any network.

Now I know that iPhone has a great browser, and I am using the Internet on my phone, but I will probably do away with that. It simply costs me too much for the small page. I guess I am only 15 minutes away from a 24 inch LCD monitor at anytime, so I don't really need it.

I think a lot of phones will allow modem connections. When purchasing a smart phone, learn from my mistakes. It is a lot like building a network. You should design it first, which means sitting down and deciding what you want. This is key:

Do you want mainly a cell phone that seconds as a PDA?

Or, do you want mainly a PDA that seconds as a phone?

I am sure you can look for the perfect phone that does both. I am not really trying to get into a discussion about how iPhone does, etc.

But, that is where I went wrong. I purchased an unlocked i-Mate for about a month's salary. It was and still is an awesome phone. Actually, it will probably be a great phone when each state passes laws against driving and using a cell phone at the same time, because you HAVE to pull over to use the phone. Unlike an inexpensive but super efficient regular Motorole flip phone, which you can dial with one hand in the dark without looking, it was nearly impossible to dial without using the stylus. So, I really wanted to have a phone with a good keyboard for dialing.

The Blackberry Storm, has a GREAT touch screen on screen dial pad. It was an awesome phone with a relatively good browser and a large screen, but it had the usual amount of design flaws and bugs that made it unbearable.

I haven't used an iPhone, and I guess I am actually unknowlingly singing its praises, but my guess is with the touch screen and design, it probably is easy to dial on it.

Now, if you are looking for more of the PDA first, so you can text, email, MMS and browse, then you want to make sure you have a great keyboard. I could fly with my thumbs on the i-Mate. I would have to say I could type about 25 to 30 wpm, which I think is fairly decent. If I typed that fast with the Storm, I would have at least ten errors when done with one or two texts, and all of the reviewers say the same thing.

I also found out the hard way, do not buy online unless you know you like the phone. It is nice to go to T-Mobile, AT&T or Verizon and actually play with the phones. Plus, it is a great idea to use their 30-day return to make sure you like the phone.

Here are a few good review sites. I believe phonearena is considered one of the best.

Besides the fact that no one can make the perfect cell phone. I mean the Diamond came without a flash and had no SD slot, there should be a law against the keyboard designers. Imagine if every keyboard for every computer you used had a different layout. They really need to standardize those things. Some have the comma on the left, others on the right. Some make you shift into a different character mode to use the question mark, some don't. And, I think the designers get paid more the smaller they make the space bar. Didn't they learn from Wheel of Fortune, when everyone picks the same five consonants and vowels at the end, because statistically they are the most likely to show up in the phrase? I mean I would think the the . , ' and ? have to be the most used. Why not put them on the first level of the keyboard and in a certain cluster?

But, I digress.

I have not decided if the strict control exerted on Apple products is good or bad. Bad in that you do not get as much flexibility in using different products and apps. Good though in that the product works as advertised. I think that the iPhone / Touch is such a great product because there is no other PDA or smartphone that works as easily or effectively. There are certainly flaws and shortcomings in the iPhone/Touch product like the lack of a keyboard option, larger screens or higher resolutions.

I think that the iPhone will become the defacto smartphone just like the iPod is the de facto portable media player. I hate the iPod, it has a small screen, no expansion and is expensive. But no other product has such a simple to use music and video purchasing system and sync feature. The other portable media players lack a consistent DRM mechanism and sync ability. M$ depreciated their "Plays for Sure" DRM in favor of their Zune player which used something different. With the switch MS told their "Plays for Sure" users that after a certain date the servers that authenticate the DRM on the players will go off line and you will not be able transfer the media content to another player in the future. Of course the DRM is going out on music, I am not sure about video. However the point is that iTunes music that I bought 6 years ago will still work on my new product and that consistancy is why iTunes and iPod is the standard.

The same thing is going to occur with the iPhone where the platform will become popular, easy to use, fun and consistent. Once they achieve a critical mass then dethroning the iPhone will be next to impossible. Even though the Android looks promising, they will have an uphill battle although the multiple carriers that will carry the product may pull them ahead. I suspect that if the Android takes off that the iPhone will be unlocked from ATT. The Palm is dead even though the Pre looks promising. The years of inconsistancy with the windows mobile platform have finally doomed the product.

The BlackBerry is only a good option if you are hopelessly attached to your Exchange Server or a critical application on an large enterprise level. The lawyers that I knew with BlackBerries worked at the state and used their Blackberries to keep in touch by email and coordinating their calendaring. They loved the product since they were always on the go, different court dates and changes in situations. I have heard of hospital systems that use the Blackberries to performed two way messaging and reporting lab results. Such a system worked well since JACHO wants more documentation and tracking of the reporting and response to critical labs or events. Blackberries are great products in these situations but for an individual user or small group it is just a phone and weak PDA. I have a Pearl PDA, I hate it but I am stuck with it for now. There is just no use for it, very few apps and those do not work well.

One thing that I have noticed about the iPhone is how single people or small businesses can be greatly enhanced by the iPhone. A construction contractor that told me how his iPhone revolutionized his business. With the ability to map his location and quickly access the web were a great help to his business. His office can email doucments, locations, etc that can help keep him on task and on track. He just did not have this capability before. I hear these stories all the time about the iPhone. I have yet to hear someone tell me how their Windows mobile changed their life. Again I think that Windows Mobile is dead in the water.

that is my take on everything PDA / Smartphone. Buy an iPhone you really will not go wrong.

Geoff

The iphone is the most incredible piece of equipment to come along in a very long time, the programing leaves a bit to be desired though, that's why mine is jailbroken and has video record, calendar on the lockscreen, cut and paste, browse internal file structure from the phone and a dozen other things that clever independent programmers have come up with. I really thought it was just a toy until I actually used one, and people are still coming up with new applications every day.

Thanks to all. I have a few more months left on my current contract but I will be looking closely at the IPhone. Does anyone access their office networks remotely and do any "real work", like refills, using their smart phones?

Leslie

Leslie, one thing to keep in mind, is that ATT provides all of the wireless hotspots at Starbucks & McDonalds, if you are an iPhone customer, you get to use any ATT hotspot for free.

Leslie,

Again, can't speak for iPhone, but for others with similar screens, while I can remote into my server, doing anything worthwhile is next to impossible.

Leslie,

There is a GoToMyPc or something similar app on the iPhone/touch but it is like looking at the remote computer through a telescope. You can only see one piece at a time and typing will be difficult. I have not personally used the iPod touch remote interface yet.
This issue is not whether you can remote into the computer but rather can you use the application on the remote desktop in a reasonable fashion that is easier than just finding a desktop to use.

Geoff

I can actually Remote Desktop in. Takes about three seconds. If I were trying to say turn off a program, I could, but trying to open AC, bring up a script and fax it or something, no way.

Leslie,

Are you using Exchange Server?

Whoa....Before we declare the iPhone as the greatest technology ever, let's look at all of the facts. First, I don't think Windows 6.1 will ever be dead in the water. Maybe it would if Apply could be put on all phones, but there are way too many companies that use Windows Mobile. It is similar if not exactly the same with XP and Mac.

Phones with 6.1 can use GPS and Browsers, so I don't know why iPhone changed these peoples lives and businesses. The only thing I can think of is they just went out and got an iPhone due to all the hype and now are excited by what it can do.

Blackberry can certainly access Exchange Server via Blackberry Enterprise Server (free for one, but pricey for a larger group). Certainly one of the huge advantages of Windows Mobile is its ability to interface with PCs and Exchange seamlessly. Granted ActiveSync is another crappy Windows program.

The problem here is that everything is proprietary, and the fact that the iPhone (legally) cannot be unlocked is ridiculous. Most phones can be bought unlocked and all should be able to. Geoff it sounds as though you are somewhat stuck because of a contract.

I hope one day the government will deregulate this whole industry. To make HTC Touch Pro native to Verizon while the other HTCs are native to other carriers is a joke. Actually, it would be better if it were a monopoly and there was one large carrier. There are great phones that Sprint has but Sprint is horrible. Then some carriers use SIM cards and others don't.

Again, this isn't a rebuttal about iPhone. I looked at iPhone and probably would have purchased one if it weren't tied to AT&T. I don't like AT&T, but it doesn't matter, you can't get any bars here in Bangor.

Plus while I think six versions of Vista is crazy, at least they do have an Ultimte and a Busiess. I would still think an iPhone that is a business model without the songs and videos and youtube would be a great alternative. I do think that there is now software that allows a phone to connnect to Exchange. But, for the true business person, not being able to use Exchagne as you can with 6.1 and Blackberry is somewhat diminishing the return of the phone.

Since Leslie brought this up, I would recommend you look at a phone that fits your needs. I love BMWs, but the nearest dealership is three hours away and seven months out of the year, there is snow on the ground. So, the key is to look at factors such as:

1. Will your carrier have good coverage? This is number 1.
2. Do you need to type a lot of emails and texts? If so, do you like the keyboard the phone uses?
3. Do you like the way the phone works? Kind of key.
4. Does it remote and interact with your network well?
5. Does it have a modem?
6. Do you like the types of connectivity it has? CMDA, G3, etc.
7. Do you travel to other places including Europe? Some won't buy iPhones, because there is no AT&T there.

There is little doubt that Apple/Mac make superior proudcts than Microsoft. They tend to stick with a few things and make them right. I think we are having this discussion because in the smart phone world, there are Apple OS, Blackberry, Palm and Windows. iPhone only designs one phone, well two, so they probably do it better.

Bert having used both Win6.1 and the iPhone I can tell you I do not miss the TeleNav Turn by Turn Driving directions on my Tilt. With the iPhone's locatation services, you can navigate to a location, but even more useful you can FIND STUFF NEAR YOU.

Yes Windows 6.1 is dead in the water. Sending email for example. I have three different email accounts. My ISP at home is Cox which only allows me to send email thru their smtp gateway. When I'm away from home, I have to use my domain gateway. Try that trick on a Winmobile phone. It won't send if you are in the "wrong" location.

On the iPhone, you can enter multiple smtp servers for an email account, it will try each one until it sends the message.

My Tilt HTC 2925 had a full keyboard, I don't miss it. I can read write and edit my office docs on my iPhone.

I agree that Windows Mobile is dead in the water!

I have an iPhone 3G, and it is simply the best "phone" I have ever used -- clarity, lack of dropped calls, simplicity of calling & voice mails, address book software. Of course you have to be in an area where AT&T is strong.

The most attractive factor of the iPhone is the thousand of apps that are downloadable from iTunes. The usefulness for doctors is getting better: I use Epocrates, Reach MD (CME), Maps (find pharmacy tele #s) almost every day in situations when a computer isn't handy. Now all I need is Amazing Charts Mobile, and I'm in heaven...

I have no problem accessing Exchange Server from anywhere. Again, I am not saying that iPhone isn't a great phone. Would have tried it myself if it was easy to unlock it and advertised as such and could use it with USCellular or Verizon.

When everyone says Windows Mobile 6.1 is dead in the water, do they mean 6.1 as compared to 6 or 7 eventually? I don't think they are. I think you are saying that Windows Mobile period is dead. And, that is like saying Windows XP, Vista or 7 is dead in the water when compared with Mac.

Windows OS on PDAs and cell phones have been around longer than Apple's. And, even with Apple or Blackberry having better operating systems, Windows Mobile will never go away. I would love to take bets on that.

Bert, as you are well aware, in software it's about timing. Microsoft rested on their laurels and Apple produced a product that plugged most of the holes that Windows Mobile had. I waited until the iPhone 3G, a full 18 months and in that time Microsoft had come up with nothing for its mobile phones.

Now Microsoft is saying Windows Mobile 7 will not be released until the second half of this year.

I believe there is something missing in your analysis. Windows Mobile 6.1 is not WindowsXP lite. It is a completely different operating system.

The iPhone OS X was developed from the same OS that runs on the Macs.

Microsoft's best last hope for it's future survival is to make the footprint of Windows 7 small enough to be put on a mobile device.

Windows Mobile 7 Phone release now seriously delayed - perhaps 2010

By that time Apple would have release it's 3rd generation iPhone!

Hey iphone people!
Don't want to buy an expensive stand for your iphone?
Make one from a paperclip!
I did and it's awesome!!
http://www.deanying.com/PermaLink,guid,a99a1c06-b55b-4001-afeb-46a707055ecc.aspx

George,

LOL, there is a HUGE difference in analysis and analogy. My statement was an analogy.

I knew this would happen. I tried to write a disclaimer stating I wasn't trying to get into a WM vs iPhone war. I am simply trying to save Leslie and anyone else from doing what I did, which was buy an $800 phone that I couldn't use because AT&T would not work in MY AREA. So, please check that out.

I simply doubt, given the OEM contracts that Microsoft has with Nokia, et al, you will seen WinMo go under anytime soon.

Bert,

My point about the contractor's experience with the iPhone changing his business is just that you never hear this from users of Windows Mobile products. There is no excitement in the windows mobile platform because people like me are sick and tired of this product that is always buggy and unreliable. There are certainly situations where the Windows Mobile products are better. I am sure that many a drug rep are using this product to coordinate their sale forces and inventory on a large enterprise level. But for the average small business user like most AC users (I am only assuming) I think that the Windows Mobile product provides no appreciable benefit.

With my iPod touch I synced up the iTunes and it imported the outlook, synced music and apps in practically one step. I have never had that happen with Activesync. I am lucky if the activesync can even find the PDA let alone sync it. Of course the single minded, limited hardware of the apple platform makes this easier then all the multitudes of Windows Mobile products but Activesync should be better than it is.

You can do anything on a windows product that can be done on an apple product. However the apple actually works and consistently works and that is the difference with the iPhone verses the Windows Mobile.

Unless Microsoft is able to figure out a solution in their platform to enable easy syncing and installation of 3rd party apps then it is doomed. I am not a particular fan of Apple, I think an Apple dominated IT world would a very bad place to live. However I am tired of the fractured nature of the Windows platform both on the Windows Mobile and Windows Vista side.

I am stuck with my USCellular because that is the only reliable cellular network where I live. The actual phone feature comes first since I am on call. I would pay the money to get rid of the BlackBerry, there is just no other option at this time.

Bert is absolutely right about wherever product you choose that it needs to meet your needs. An iPhone that has poor connectivity or does not work with a critical mobile application is a waste of money. The smartphone needs to meet YOUR particular needs first and foremost. However I think that most needs are met with a iPhone and that is your best option (except with the modem requirement which many plans do not allow anyways, at least the ones around where I live).

Geoff

I could certainly understand all of these iPhone vs Windows Mobile posts if I were sitting here at my computer debating everything. I, myself, would own an iPhone if 1) it could dial out over the non-existent coverage, 2) if it didn't have so many non-business features (OK, I am not use them), and 3) if it had a physical keyboard. But, that's just I. I think it is a great phone. But, being I, I find it hard to sit by and not debate some of the points that the users of iPhone make that I think are just not true.

I do not think you hear no excitement from Windows Mobile users because they don't like them. It is because Windows CE and Windows 6.1 have been used for quite awhile. My guess is if I had an iPhone, I would be somewhat excited by its novelty. Frankly, if I go from i-Mate to an HTC to a Nokia to a Samsung, I find no reason to get excited all over again just as when I was a kid and opened a football for Christmas, I wouldn't have been excited by opening another.

The iPhone was targeted at the same crowd as the iPod who usually aren't 25 to 45 year old business people. Business people tend to go with the Blackberry or a phone with 6.1, although it is obvious that iPhone is catching on in that realm. But, the previous set of users just don't get all that excited about things like a Smartphone.

I will give you the ActiveSync issue, but Microsoft has been making OS going back past 2000. I doubt they will be doomed. The system may be horrible compared to Apple's, but they aren't not going to be out of the mobile phone business.

How did Vista get into this?

Bert I am a Microsoft developer and I swear by their development tools. Even Microsoft understands that the conventional "OS" ground is shifting beneath them. I predict in 10 years, it will not be PC's but rather computing devices/services that will be front and center. Microsoft still has not made a shift from it's PC centric business model, but they are making some progress. Please take some time to read about Microsoft's Azure Services Platform

I also suspect that the push back of Windows Mobile 7 is also related to the delivery of Windows 7...the realization that the footprint of Windows 7 needs to be small enough to fit on a mobile device. This means an app written for Windows 7 will also run on a device. From a developer's perspective, this will do a lot for MS's platform success: developers don't have to develop and maintain 2 different versions of their applications for devices and for pc's.

The question is "has the train already left the station?"