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I am looking a getting a new laptop. Is anyone using Windows Vista with AC? Any problems? I like XP Professional but most of the new laptops are loaded with Vista. Any comments would be appreciated.

Leslie

1. You can certainly get laptops with XP Pro still. You may have to request no OS (if they give a discount) and purchase XP Pro separately. I wouldn't recommend mixing and matching. Probably won't hurt the network, but it does confuse things especially given some legacy software doesn't work with Vista. Most do. AC does.

2. The best person to ask (not that others don't use Vista -- but I know that of the people who do post here a lot, Adam does) would be Adam. He runs Vista on all his PCs, laptop and workstations. He is very happy with them. PM him.

We bought one inexpensive laptop with Vista, and we were considering paying to convert it to X-P. It worked OK on our net work but had occasional glitches and was just annoying. Then it got stolen and we all celebrated. When I bought my little Fujitsu "lifebook" I was told they only had two left with X-P Pro. Four months later I went back to buy another and it came with both sets of software, I had the choice.

Leslie, one word of caution in buying Vista. If you want compatibility w/ XP Pro, you may not find it. I use Vista Business edition. I would definitely not use the Vista Home edition that comes w/ theses store bought machines. Vista Ultimate would be fine, or Business would be fine. Just don't use Home or Home Premium.

Laptops are fine in my office, that's what I use in the exam rooms. They come w/ their own battery backup, so that saves on UPS devices that I don't need to buy. However, the wireless feature is not recommended. I used wireless for 6 months until I moved to my new office (hard wired). Dropped signals occur frequently, the computer reconnects to the network automatically, however you only need a dropped signal for a millisecond and then you've lost connection to the database in AC. This can corrupt data and at the very least it causes frustration in having to reconnect frequently (1-10x daily).

Leslie,

I would take this approach. Choose what you want from Dell or whatever. Then call their sales department. Go through your specs, then tell them you will absolutely not purchase it if it does not come preloaded with XP Pro. Period.

I ended up getting the Vostro which is loaded with XP but comes with a CD for Vista if I want to load it in the future. Adam, thanks for the input. I do not plan to use this laptop in the office on a wireless network but I want wireless capabilities for traveling....e.g to the ACUC. I tried a wireless network in the office several years ago and hated it. Ended up hard-wiring.

Leslie

Way to go Leslie, I liked your choice. Please, please tell me it came with XP Pro. If not, ask Dell to send you the upgrade. Or, I will purchase it myself. Or Adam and I will together. We can write it off for our company:

www.stampoutxphome.com

Leslie,
Call Dell or any other of your favorite Mail Order place and make a purchase TODAY!!! If you can buy today. Today is the cut off that allows them to sell a duel licensed PC. After today MS is going to force them to sell their stuff with Vista and then folks will have to buy an extra copy of an OS to avoid their mistakes and problems.

We haven't fixed, we're just going to shove it down your throat none the less. This is the kind of stuff that makes ya what to donate time and money to the open source folks. No wonder Gates is stepping down right now, so he doesn't have to hear and deal with the up roar this is going to cause...

It's funny, because bitch as we might about Gates, no matter what he does it turns to gold, and even when he screw up and loses a billion, it is made up in interest in less than a month. And, what would we do without Microsoft?

Linux?

For the average user?

Yes but to try and force an entire operating system down the entire worlds throat that is such a dog that it just can't sell worth a lick on it's own merits is scandalous. It smacks of the worse kind of monopoly like behaviors and should probably be investigated as such. If the dog can't hunt then they have an obligation to continue selling and supporting what actually does. To force us all into the next things while it still can't work well or play nice with it's older brothers is just unforgivable.

If and when Vista actually grows up and can work well then it will sell because it has earned that right and reputation. This piss poor excuse for an operating system is going to cost our economy, all businesses and educational institutions untold millions if not billions of dollars. And all because they released a dog of a product so instead of fixing it or ditching it and eating the costs of their own mistakes instead they get to recoop their loses twice over. Once now by forcing it upon all of us now, and the second time if and when the next thing post Vista actually does work well, and then half the world all spends billions of dollars upgrading to the decent new product. Let them eat their loses like the rest of us in the real free market. Or if what is good for MS now good for America, just like with GM many years ago??? Tell me where are the ethics in any of that...

"I'm glad to report that I have been error free for over a week, I'm glad to report that I have been error free for over a week..." "Will somebody please restart him"

"Ask not what Vista can do for you, but what can you do for Vista...."

If I wasn't so invested in PC and AC worked directly on the MAC platform I certainly would be working in a MAC set-up. This stuff is just too much...

Well, I purchased it today!! And yes it does have XP Pro. I also just heard that today is the last day to buy XP and that only computers already loaded with it can be sold as of tomorrow. Glad I got off my tush and got it ordered. Here are the specs. This will be the main computer used when I start scanning into AC.
23-8901 Vostro 1510, Intel Core 2 Duo T5870, 2.0GHz, 800MHz FSB, 2M L2 Cache $985.00
1 320-6437 15.4 inch Widescreen WXGA LCD for Vostro 1510 $0.00
1 311-8551 2GB, DDR2, 667MHz 2 DIMM $0.00
1 320-6435 Intel Integrated Graphics Media Accelerator X3100 $0.00
1 341-6599 250GB 5400RPM SATA Hard Drive $0.00
1 311-8593 No Touchpad with UPEKM#174; Fingerprint Reader $0.00
1 467-5380 Windows XP Pro SP2 with Vista Business License, Dell Vostro English $0.00
1 313-6183 CyberLink PowerDVD 8.0 DVD Playback $0.00
1 420-7291 Google Small Biz Home Page Internet Portal $0.00
1 420-7658 Dell Support Center 2.0 for Dell Vostro $0.00
1 420-8057 Image Restore, Vostro $0.00
1 410-1100 Adobe Reader 8.1 $0.00
1 313-6190 24X COMBO CD-RW/DVD with Roxio Creator, Vostro $0.00
1 313-6191 Roxio Creator Dell Edition 9.0for Dell Vostro $0.00
1 313-4783 Integrated High Definition Audio 2.0 $0.00
1 430-2886 Dell Wireless 1395 802.11g Mini Card $0.00
1 313-6184 No Built in Camera and DigitalMicrophone $0.00
1 313-6187 No Personalization LCD Back $0.00
1 410-1449 Norton Internet Security 15-Month, English, for Dell Vostro Desktops and Notebooks $0.00
1 312-0685 58 WHr 6-cell Lithium Ion Primary Battery, for Vostro 1510 $0.00
1 420-7773 Microsoft Works Plus 2008 English, for Dell Vostro Desktops and Notebooks $0.00
1 990-4067 Dell Hardware Limited Warranty Plus Onsite Service Initial Year $0.00
1 983-3920 Warranty Support,Initial Year $0.00
1 988-7347 No Warranty beyond 1 year $0.00
1 988-1460 Basic Support: Next Business Day Parts and Labor Onsite Response Initial Year $0.00
1 991-2878 Dell ProSupport Service Offering Declined $0.00
1 420-7776 Dell DataSafe 2.0 Online, 10GBor 1 Year Free, for Dell Vostro Notebooks and Desktops $0.00
1 987-7479 VOSTRO,Datasafe 10GB,1YR(Incl w/price) $0.00
1 420-7185 Dell Support 3.4, No Install $0.00
1 462-4506 Purchase is NOT intended for resell $.00
1 330-0254 Intel Core 2 Duo Label $.00
1 310-8624 You have chosen a Windows XP System $.00
1 310-8977 Info SKU-Software and Peripherals products and solutions catalog included in system boxes $.00

Leslie

Nice, Leslie. Although, my guess is there will be many "markets" available for XP.

My first post...

Any laptop sold with vista business/ultimate will retain downgrade rights to windows xp professional or tablet edition (not a retail upgrade like Vista Home-->Ultimate). You just have to obtain the OEM install disks of either XP editions and call microsoft to get a new key.

refer to the following document under OEM (preinstalled vista business/ultimate on the computer)

download.microsoft.com/download/d/2/3/d23b9533-169d-4996-b198-7b9d3fe15611/downgrade_chart.doc

You also need to refer to the EULA of your specific machine to see if you are granted those rights.

However you can not have both vista and XP running under this situation, one or the other. Running both would require a separate license.

Obtaining the install disk for XP is probably the most difficult step unless your buddy buddy with some computer shop friends.

Another difficulty in downgrading is the acquisition of XP drivers. I have a TX1000 tablet, good luck getting those drivers. It will take a considerable effort to obtain the necessary drivers for some computers that are preloaded with Vista. The tech support will not usually help you.


Geoffrey Thomas, DO

PS the downgrade rights exist beyond yesterday's doomsday for Windows XP

Geoffrey,

Welcome to AC. I can see already you will offer some great insight to the community.

You will also find these boards the best in the contry. Everyone helps each other, and mostly we all get along.

thanks, welcome to the board. This is good information to know.

Note that this is only for the business editions. Most of the retail computers purchased at best buy ect. have home versions, which are not eligible for upgrade.

If you have a dell, try this site for a $20.00 XP disk http://www.pacificgeek.com/product.asp?ID=63410&C=283&S=-1
most of the drivers are online. This will only work for a dell.

Also, a bit of a warning on OEM CDs. OEM, for those who don't know, stands for Original Equipment Manufacturers. It was intended to be sold by Microsoft to resellers such as Dell, Gateway, HP, etc. to come loaded on a CD.

It was easy in the past to purchase these by what even looked like reputable dealers on the net. Microsoft has SERIOUSLY cracked down on these by sneaking their Genuine Authenticity Certificate checkers through your updates. These check the CD code of the OEM OS against what is on their database. The software can find the CD key on your PC and send it back to what they call the mothership. I had this happen to a friend of mine and watched as one feature after another shut down including her CD. This can be done with all sorts of software.

You have three options given the deals the Geoffrey has mentioned. Find the deal and run it by Microsoft. Watch very closely for the update. (but it will get by you eventually). Or purchase the OEM knowingly, contact Microsoft and report the company for selling you bogus software, and Microsoft will probably give you a good key.

Again, this offer may negate all this. Just want to make sure you don't pay for an OEM and get screwed. Generally, if the full version costs about $300, the OEM version will run you about $129 if you search on Nextdeal.

Bert, your comments are valid

This is a dell reinstall disk, not a full XP disk.

While they could have copied and screensilked the disk, I suspect these are genuine, as these folks seem to be legit. Because of the limited market on reinstall disks, I suspect it would not be worth it for a legitimate company to incur the wrath of Microsoft/Dell/etc.

I have dealt with them before. Actually, never bought the disk because I didn't have a need for it. So, caveat emptor.

Well, if you have a real Dell with a real valid set-up Dell is doing something a bit interesting. They are putting the basic details somewhere on the motherboard or bios because when you re-install a fairly new Dell, it already knows who you are. You don't have to enter any install key. So for example I just bought three Dells recently. I don't have to keep the keys and discs separate and together with each machine. Heck if I lost a OS disc for anyone of them I can simply use another disc from either of the other two.

And yes, with yesterday's drop dead deadline that is why I went out and purchased all these machines even though money is tight. I grabbed two great towers and a pretty strong notebook too. And all with the double license and the discs and drivers for both OS's too. So I am the legal owner of three copies of both XP Pro and Vista Business. There were no such well set up machines on the refurb part of the site with Ultimate when I purchased just a while back. But these towers were just too strong to pass up. Quad core xeons! I'm set for awhile now.

I'm hearing rumors that Vista might very well become another orphan OS that just gets dropped like a hot potato as soon as they have a valid new one to take it's place. Now that is abusive Cartel like power....

Hey Bert sort of sounds like you are talking about the EULA again.... lol

Paul, I am wondering if you have had the chance to try Vista Ultimate or Business editions?

These are quite decent products and don't have any major networking issues, in my humble opinion. I've found them to integrate to Small Business Server 2003 quite well.

Hardware compatibility issues? I had a couple sound and video cards to replace on old computers, nothing major. Software compatibility problems, I have yet to encounter any major ones.

I agree w/ Bert, a word of caution against buying OEM's.

I am not a lawyer, however...

Remember that all licenses are rights to use the software under the terms of the license not ownership of the product.

Definition - a licensing audit is when an organization reviews the installation of software on a business set up to verify that all the software is installed and used with in the EULA (ie no multiple installs of a single licensed product).

There is confusion about what an OEM license is. An OEM license is issued for installation of the operating system (or any software licensed this way but I will use OS for simplicity) on a new computer. Computer builders can purchase these licenses at high volume, lower prices for installation on their computers. This same license can be purchased by individuals building their own computers. The hardware requirement is quite liberal for allowing purchase of an OEM license. If you build your own computer you are fine. Resellers are not scamming anyone, they are selling these licenses as directed by Microsoft however you, the end user, are responsible for meeting the EULA terms.

If you have a prebuilt computer then you can not install an OEM licensed software on that computer. It may work but it would not stand up to a software licensing audit.

The situation in purchasing the windows xp disks at deep discounts is suspect to me. I would not risk that on a business installation.

Another example is purchasing an academic version of XP professional to install an upgrade to XP home. Using this would work fine, activate, etc. However you would fail a licensing audit since you are using the license in a business and not academic setting.

I am not your lawyer, you need to read the EULA when you click the "I Agree" button.

Geoffrey Thomas, DO

First things first, Welcome Geoffrey to AC. Sounds like you will be very helpful 'round here on the technical end.

Paul, maybe the reason you can do what you say you can do is that when you activate an OS, Microsoft is looking at your CD key and comparing it with your hardware setup. There are even examples of what it will take to lose that setup, i.e. changing your hardware. So, if you have a nVida 8500 and a 3COM NIC card, etc., you will probably be OK. But, with time, you may change things, so my recommendation is to write down the MAC address on each disc or cover along with the activation code from the side of the computer. Eventually, it will catch up with you. ALL are computers are built identically, and I know that Adobe knows -- trust me.

OEM is OEM and Full retail is full retail period. Microsoft has come along in steps. First, activation, then Genuine Authenticity where they WILL shut down your program via the Internet. And, they like to do it one step at a time. I watched it. The key thing is you don't get something for nothing. You have a better chance with the Academic version if you have nursing and medical students.

Having said that, if anyone has Vista Upgrade and they wish to install it as a full product with a reformmated hard disk, I can tell them how to do it. Trust me, so can Adam. We have done it in our sleep. It is the coolest workaround of AlL time, and Microsoft knows about the loophole and, so far, have done nothing to combat it.

Again, welcome Geoffrey. Anyone else want to say hi.

No I had to wipe and reload my drive to configure them RAID 1 as opposed to how they arrived, set up in zero. So I was on the phone with tech support there for a bit and this is what they told me actually. You no longer really need your discs. Now I'm not totally buying it so I'll take a copy of my dics none the less... But it is checking the hardware and then enter the pre-installed some where key for that machine. My question there is what if I needed a new mother board or bios, where ever they are hiding it???

That is the rub of product activation. Usually you can talk the microsoft activation rep of out india into resetting the key.

I would still make copies of your disk, that is cheap and easy to do.

You should be able to install off an "Anytime upgrade" vista install disk with your product key. I am not sure if an SP1
disk would still work.

Thanks Bert for welcoming me to the forum.

Well, I'm still flying totally XP Pro service pack 2 1/2 might we say. We never finished knocking around the pros and cons of installing the entire service pack 3. Now most of us, we included have taken the regular updates anyway, but unless it got snuck in on us, we haven't taken the actual service 3. So since SP3 is mostly the regular updates as I said we are SP 2 1/2 I think....

Adam,
in light of the fact the Vista still doesn't want to play nice with it's older brother XP and if I put Vista on any one machine then we would be in a mixed enviroment and I am in no mood to give Bill mucho dollares for updating my perfectly funcional XP Pro older machines, and we are in a P2P set-up I have not even begun to try Vista Business. I probably could have played with it on the new tower that is at the home since it is not part of the office network, but even the laptop peers come home to work now and again and I don't need them having conflicts with one another.

All has been so quiet and smooth since I straightened out the Trend Micro issue and switched to Kaspersky that I am in no mood to making trouble for myself. I am still catching up from all the lost time with that last fiasco along with getting our new equipment on line in the middle of that last issue. As you know in the end it was just the Trend screwing up the network communication, but until AC tech had enough offices with the same issues and configurations to then clue those of us with the issues in... Oh what an f'ing headache...

I'll just sit back and let you, Bert, Vinny and Brian venture out and screw up your system since you know better than I had to reverse the damage anyway... I'll learn from your experiences....

Bert et al,

We have been using Vista Home Premium on our computers (one desktop and three laptops) since we started the practice at OTC last September. The machines were all new and we started AC at the same time. They are all hard wired. We have had no significant problems so far, but this thread is making me nervous.
My computers at home are all XP and I do prefer XP, but I honestly think that a portion of that preference is my reluctance to change.

Welcome to AC Geoffry!
Please give me a call if you ever get to Springfield.

Best,

Jim (417 830-9286 cell)

Jim, the key is if you are using a domain or a workgroup.

Paul, you don't find it.

Keep the disks and copy them to a partition on your server.

Server, what server, we don't need no stinkin' server... we're P2P here man....

Here we P4P and server.

i've found surprisingly that ubuntu is much more easier to use every iteration i try. the latest is hardy, and it's very easy to use. but open platform emr's are rare, so i'll have to hold off on using that in the office. for personal use, i use both win xp and ubuntu...

First post....

If base computer is 2Gb with all other hard drive etc requirements met, can work stations get by with slower processors?

Hi Skullz,
Welcome to AC.
Can I ask you to clarify the question please?
The computer you are referring to is 2Gb, in which you mean 2GbRAM correct?
The second part of your question refers to the processor speed, this is different from the RAM.
If you mean to ask, "Can other work stations get by with less RAM?" The answer is yes. The minimum system requirement for Vista Home edition is 512Mb of RAM, the minimum system requirement for Vista Business/HomePremium/Ultimate is 1Gb of RAM.

You can go to this link:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsvista/editions/systemrequirements.mspx

This details all minimum system requirements for Vista versions.

From personal experience, I would recommend using twice the minimum RAM to run Vista.
I would also turn off the visual effects of Vista in order to improve computing performance. Do this by going to StartButton-->Right click "Computer" on the right hand side-->click "properties"-->click "advanced system settings" on the left hand side-->click performance "settings" button-->click "Adjust for best performance" button.

If you do this one simple step on all your workstations,you will notice improvement in speed. You don't need the stupid flashy special effects of Vista, it just eats up system memory.

hope this helps

Skullz,

Welcome to AC and thanks for your post. Adam gave good advice, although I will challenge him why get Vista, if you aren't going to use all those cool effects like Aero. Hell, you may as well go back to using the boring XP. Unless, of course, Microsoft sent like ten to you, but you know they won't do that.

I think his question is the following. If your "base computer" (Server) has 2 GB of RAM and good hardware, etc. that meets the minimum requirements of running AC, can you get away with less processing speed on the clients? Is that correct?

Before, I answer, I must agree with Adam, that your answer is a little vague and also your answer will always be a little like a seesaw. Imagine that the faster your server is (goes up) the less powerful your client may need to be (goes down). It's always good to make your server your best and most powerful computer. However, unlike the thin clinets of the past, you aren't running the applications on the server. You are still running AC on your workstations. Therefore, the faster your clients (workstations), the better your performance with AC will be. If you only have 256MB or 512MB of RAM on your clients and you have AC open and you pop open Word and two Internet Explorers, your performance will go down. You also need processor speed to make your calculations on your computer. As you know, the three most important things on a computer are the processor, the hard drives and the RAM. The latter two are so cheap, you may as well go with the theory, "the bigger, the better." If you can get 2GB as Adam suggested on each, get 2GBs. If you can get 3GB get three. Just remember how you configure the RAM is important so you have to look at your system board's manual or ask someone before just filling three DIMMs (slots) out of four. And, also remember that 4GB = 3.2GB if running 32 bit OS which you are. So, 3GB is optimal if your system board takes it. It is always a little more difficult to increase your processor speed as you don't just add them and going to better processors sometimes means getting a new motherboard (system board).

Remeber with AC, all of the data is transferred back and forth. Your server will send and receive from the database, but that's it. Most of the work is done on your client.

you should avoid using Vista on older hardware, especially single core systems when it comes to Vista. I installed Vista Basic on a laptop with a single proc and 1 gb ram. I dumped it due to performance issues (and the fact my friends and I am dumping windows from our home environments).

The Vista ready sticker scam is really coming to light in recent litigation against M$. Systems that meet the "minimum" requirement had such bad performance that you had to go back. This happens a lot in game software where the minimum requirements can be met with just about any $500 computer built in the last two years but they use the game to benchmark the performance $3000 computers.

If the previous post about the memory requirement is referring to computers about to be purchased then the processors will almost always be a dual core model.

2 GB will work fine in Vista and should be considered the minimum in all Vista installations. The biggest determinate of performance in my opinion is the use of integrated (shared memory) or discrete graphics (dedicated with shared memory to). Integrated graphics just suck with Aero in Vista.

Vista really belongs on the $1000 or higher computer market since these are the computers with dedicated graphics. You can easily add the cards in desktops, just purchase the lower end versions due to power supply requirements. Notebooks however are stuck with what ever they have from the factory.

>>> That is the rub of product activation. Usually you can talk the microsoft activation rep of out india into resetting the key.

Actually, with Windows XP if you wait 4 months, the product resets and activation will complete successfully without having to call MS by phone! With Vista, MS was going to make it ONE installation only, but last I heard, there was such an uproar from the community that they went back to the Windows XP EULA, so the resetting should apply to that version of Windows too. Setting up a new Win XP or Vista computer every 4 months is possible, but not legal.



The Dell and Gateway OEM disks sold on eBay for $20 or so can be used as substitutes for lost disks as long as you have the original Windows information on the computer box that matches the type of Windows on the OEM disk purchased on eBay. That is, if the Dell computer is set to run WinXP Pro, and you buy a replacement Win XP Pro disc, you should be OK. Heck, on resetup the installation doesn't even ask you for the installation password. Now, the EULA states that the OEM discs can't be sold without hardward, so you will get a broken hard drive, ram memory chip, or whatever to comply with Microsoft's EULA.

The statements above on software licenses in a business situation are true- if you are unlucky enough to be audited, you need to demonstrate that you purchased the right license, and have used it according to the EULA. There was an article that I read during my recent trip to Greece from PC World: http://www.pcworld.ca/news/column/85c33b600a01040801adc12203c97635/pg1.htm.

You may get pass the product activation you may have problems with windows genuine activation with multiple installs of the same licensing key.

Anyone who sets up any computer product with the MINIMUM requirements is asking for poor performance whether it is Windows 2K, XP, Vista or otherwise.

You definitely need 2GB of RAM for Vista, and you would want a good video card if you are going to use any of the fancy features.