Home Forums Discussions General Discussion I'm happy it is not a subscription service!

From my perspective, this is simply my opinion vs another's opinion. No reason to worry that it will cause problems in a friendship.

This is the premise that I find is wrong. Sure, the EULA has changed. Sure, maybe Jon is offering less support or an inferior product or is changing to a subscription model. That is his right as the owner and author of the program. As the consumer, we have the right to buy, subscribe or do neither. Their used to be a great little product called GoBack by Wildfile. It was good. Then it was bought by Adaptec, which bought Roxio. It was great as Adaptec and less so as Roxio. Then this one little restore program was sold to Symantec for $13,000,000. Now it is ruined. Symantec, IMHO, ruins anything it touches. So, is GoBack the same product it was five years ago? No. Do I have to buy it? No. There was a great imaging program called Drive Image. It was made by PowerQuest. It competed with Ghost. Then Symantec bought Drive Image and used it to make Ghost. Now Drive Image and Ghost are terrible. Same thing as above.

This is the point. Do I want everything to be the same as before? Do I want the EULA to be one paragraph long and the program to cost $250 per year again? Yes, but it isn't. I have to decide if it is still worth it to purchase it. And, it is.

I just do not see how Amazing Charts is going to take your data. They just aren't. But, if you are worried about it, save a copy of AC on a CD and back up your data daily. If somehow AC can get into your computer and turn off AC, you can install the program on another PC and access all your data.

While there is no limit as to where technology is going and what one can do with it, are you really saying with your above analogy that Jon is going to break into your computer, take or destroy your program and destroy your data? The only thing Jon can and will do (unless I am totally missing the boat here) is not allow you to have support or use new versions if you are not subscribed to his product annually. Adam made a good point to me the other day, and I find it to be an excellent analogy. We generally say we "own" our domain names. No, we do not own them. We "lease" them or subscribe to them. Or pay for them when the time is up. If you do not pay, your domain name is freed up for anyone to use. Now your email and your website and everything which depends on it, are no longer effective. I have a friend who recently forgot to pay for her hosting. Guess what. The site is gone.

While we all purchasing things for different reasons: the price of a product, its performance, the support or the attitude of the vendor; any of the above may and probably will change over time. What may you decide to obey in the first place, when it is gone, may make you decide not to purchase again. I think what continues to be missed here is no one is being forced to subscribe to AC. No one is being forced to purchase it to begin with. One decides what he or she wishes to purchase.

Yes, this site http://www.amazingcharts.com/software_pricing.htm does read as though you have to make one purchase one time. But, when read carefully, I think it means you need one license and not one for each computer. It also means that once you have purchased the software, that's it, no other charges. You can keep that version forever with that license. At the bottom of the same page in fine print, of course, is the following:

The fine print: All prices and services are subject to change without notice and you must agree to our Terms to use our software and services. CPT is a registered trademark of The American Medical Association. Guardian Angel Technical Support is a trademark of AmazingCharts.com, Inc.

This is rather clear. As much as I wish this topic would go away, I don't think it will. To summarize:

Please read the EULA. Please read Jon's newsletter on the upcoming version. Look at the program and how it fits your workflow and your office. Then decide if you wish to continue to use it. I think it's that simple. Sometimes, one has to look at things this way: Jon and Amazing Charts are going in a certain direction. I doubt we are going to change that. The only thing we can do is either support him or not. Ultimately, that will be what determines the success of the program.

That doesn't mean we should stop using the boards to share our ways of doing things on AC. Or, to be critical of parts of the program. We don't have to stop commenting on the additions we would like made. Or anything else.

P.S.
Bert,
As you so properly said; it is the vendor's right to change such things if he so choose to do so. But as Vinny once said to me about when his right of center views and my left of center views on things like CCHITT and protecting citizens' patients rights of medical privacy were absolutely aligned and in sync: "It's not about whether is left or right, it's about whether it's right or wrong". Good old common horse sense. Is this the right thing to do for AC and it's guiding principles of always treating people fairly? And I would wager a bet that most folks in their hearts just know that it is not. Such things are not very "AC", they just aren't right, plain and simple.

No, to the OfficeMax. A better way of putting it would be if they could some how (unlikely) come into your office and take away your cypher for understanding your own records, or if they could suddenly scrabble your words and letters on your paper into meaningless garbage. Sure you still have the original paper and ink they were created in (data right?) But, For most of us, execpt perhaps you and Vinny, if we don't have the native program our data was created in, it is just about unaccessable gobbledy gook. It is just about locked away from us. And without a full team of IT people or spending thousands of dollars on a conversion of the data (and that is NEVER a sure thing, many of those just fail, sorry) we are screwed.

We all know this. This is why those web-based ASP programs can claim a 95% retention rate of customers. It really has very little to do with satisfaction with the program or their support, and almost everything to do with now your data is basically held hostage. They rarely ever have to say this overtly. It just sort of seeps in on the practice manager or the doc over time. "Well how would we move on to another vendor?" That's when the light bulb goes off. In the end, almost all end users need the native program that their data was created in to be able to properly access what they created in it.

And a purchase of the program itself means, renewal of the support or not, I am entitled to keep using the program for as long as I care to, as long as I have a valid operating system to run it on. Now again, we intend to freely re-up each and every year. But as I just said in a private email, contracts are not for when the honeymoon is happening, they are for when all hell has broken loose and neither side can really talk to one another anymore. That contract will determine how smoothly or poorly things are going to go for either party when that awful day comes down. Remember all the talk about that terrible LabCorp contract? It stunk. That is the main reason it took so long for us to finally get a lab interface going. Bad contract so no sign up. But in terms of here with AC, many of us have already signed up back when the EULA had swear words in it and Jon bless his heart, won us all over ranking on all the other awful, rip-off EMR vendors. That's what we agreed to and now that we have put so much critical data in the darn thing it is really dead wrong to change the terms and conditions so. He may be within his legal rights, but is it truly right to do??? Obviously that answer is no....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but until recently there was never any discussion of leasing vs purchasing programs like databases where the user then first created important stuff that they may always need to access such stuff later? Yeah I've heard that ASP is starting to creep into main stream financial business, but for the most part, database programs are just inherentally understood to have a long term need for the original user to access and use the program. This is almost silly at some point. Who would ever think of creating such a bad system in the first place?

As many of you know, we used to use a different program that we actually did buy the rights to. We found that other program to be just awful to live with and their support was the worst I have yet to ever see. So snooty, they looked down at us as we were struggling for the first time to learn the new terms of this strange new database world. So after a year or so of feeling abandoned, taken and vunerable to the least little problem and not being able to easily network it like AC, we went and bought a new product.... AC. What a relief, to come in out of the cold, in this harsh, take small providers for a ride enviornment that the EMR business is. Oh and Carlos and Jamie (remember her? She was so nice and helpful, just like Carlos) on the other end of the phone, we were in EMR heaven. But we had bought this other product out right and as many of you know from long ago posts, although we no longer chart in this program (although we could legally and otherwise) we still have it running on Nancy's old original laptop as an archival filling cabinet to refer to from time to time on some of our earliest patients. We even have to print out copies of whats in there now and again as a family leaves the area or practice. And it is our legal right to so.

Don't you feel that not leaving previous users with such basic protections and rights to access their very own data, their patients data, their patients record, so says the federal govt for goodness sake is just highly suspect and uneithical??? The patients chart as we have discussed in the past is really the joint intellectual property of both the patient and the provider who charted that encounter or the practice it resides in. How about a little respect for those intellectual property rights? The ones we are bound by federal law to uphold??? I gather none of you forgot that one? This is where Roy and I really see eye to eye. Law is always lagging behind technology. There needs to be a change in the law that affirms and protects this basic form intellectual property rights that reaches beyond and behind any given private contract such as this one. I as a private citizen, a husband and a father want such protection for those I love and their private medical information, their PHI.

And lets take any and all bad stuff off of AC's and Jon's shoulders. God forbid some day something terrible happened to Jon on a snowy day on I95 and AC fell into the hands of a less than well intentioned 3rd party, it is only our contract here and now that protects us on that horrible, hope it never comes day. AC is only as stable as it founder without Jon AC could quickly loose it rudder. I know I am not the only Gateway fan here, companies are bought and sold all the time. Without warning, Gateway sold all it's commercial business to another company, some new off-shoot of the old Micron company who I thought was now only Crucial the RAM company. They used to be really good back in the 90's but now??? The only thing I've got left is my original support contract on our newest laptop that at least protects us for about another year or so. This is what contracts are for to protect BOTH parties on the day when the honeymoon is over. Both sides and the more one sided a contract is, and the more resistant that party is to evening things up (off setting minor penalties, both teams still skate 5 a side let's say), then it says something about that other party now doesn't it?

May I ask where this change in sentament over the last few months has come from my dear old friend? I seem to remember you feeling a little bit more supportive of provider and patients rights of free access. I'm not beating on you, but I'm sure I remember you agreeing with the intellectual property of the provider and patient.

The longer this issue hangs out here like this, the longer it will continue to errode that sense of trust between AC and many of it's users. It's just so silly. Give provider users a strong sense of protection and belonging, of that good old fashioned AC guiding principles, and let's be done with this already.

The ball is on their side of the court now... We shall see.

@Bert,
You said it very well. I basically totally agree. READ THE FINE PRINT. The only certainties in life are death and taxes. Everything else changes. AC will change. It will morph into a stonger, better product we hope.

@Paul,
You made a good analogy about the ball, however I think the ball is in OUR court. If enough users don't like the changes, they don't subscribe to the new product. WE have the power to buy it or not buy it. The existing program on your computer will always remain there on your computer. So if no one subscribes to the new product then AC will not sustain itself financially. I really believe it's that simple.

I don't want to Jinx you or anybody else here, but just wait until you have E records in more than one database and see how you feel about how easy it is to keep bouncing around the "free market". You just got in here, but such negative terms were actually used at least once. No landlord puts terms in his lease for nothing, they are all there for a reason and one day you could be very likely looking at them right in your face....

Trust me on that Adam, ask Bert. And have him show you a copy of the original EULA, it's a hoot.

Adam,

"The existing program on your computer will always remain there on your computer."

If this was true, I'd be very satisfied.

Your assumption is not true.

The EULA states that AC has the right to pull the existing program off your computer! You could be court ordered (or have your program deactivated remotely). Did you know that?

For someone like me who has over seven years of data on AC, having this program yanked out is not acceptable. If it happens, it will lead to legal repercussions. I would rather avoid such an event and that is why I am bringing up this issue.

I, as a consumer, have a right to know if the program will be functional if I want to opt out. The EULA is vague about this. The advertising is not. I do not know how one can defend false advertising.

I would not mind updating my Amazingchart (and paying the yearly fee which is very reasonably priced), but not at a cost that the new upgrade would mean that I will have a meaningless database should Jon or his sucessor want to charge $10,000 a year for the privilege of accessing my data.

Now, I can see you rolling your eyes. It has happened to me several times. Medisoft was a great program in 1997. It was cheap and very useful program at $79. Nine years later, when I wanted to update, I found that the owners have changed hands several times. The program is now bloated and has errors programmed into the code. After several thousand dollars and switching to XP Pro on my computers (so it would be Medisoft compatible), the database was deemed "corrupt." They would fix it for a few hundred dollars. After paying this ransom to update 10 years of fiscal data, another data "corruption" popped up. The cost of unlocking the existing data and starting over again is just too expensive.

Software companies are as stable as politicians. Remember, only a few weeks ago, Romney was suggesting that Hucklebee's campaign was dead and that "A vote for Hucklebee is a vote for McCain!"

One thing for certain is change.

So, all I am asking for is some assurances that the program that is currently in my computer would not be disabled by AC.

It's hard to go on and invest my time in a program that can't give assurance that it won't just disappear into thin air.

Roy,

With all due respect, AC is NOT going to remove your program from your computer. Period. End of story. No matter what it says in the EULA.

(I mean this in the nicest way possible), if you really do think they can, then I wouldn't purchase the subscription model. Again, keep a version prior to this EULA.

Bert,
If that was absolutely true, then why can't we just have it in writing? I've yet to see a contract or lease with strange clauses that were not there with a purpose. Why is it in there? If it is not to be used, threatened or what have you, than simply take out the part of the termination clause about removing any and all copies of AC from a users system and machines.

I am simply bewildered as to why folks think that something that somebody took time and effort to create, understanding that it may raise a few eyebrown and turn off some people and therefore loose a few customers, why folks think and feel that it is not in there with a purpose and intent??? It just seems so totally in denial of the obvious truth. If it is meaningless and "Oh we would never use the nuclear option", then take the darn thing off the table and just be done with it. The fact that in even in the face of certain users voicing serious concerns about such things, there has been no visable movement of this one issue say a thousand words to me. People do not waste their time and efforts, risking alignating customers, to put clasues in contracts they have no need for and no intent to use. It really is that simple and to imply that it is something else is totally off base and nieve.

Not to keep bring up the ugly past, but do Roy and I really need I remind you to not forget your history? Because those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it, and from where I sit I think there are some re-runs coming up soon. I remember not too long ago when you were the one posting things about how folks like Roy and myself, you and one or two other active members here included, were putting our necks on the line, speaking out on behalf of the entire group and how lonely it felt to not have more users caring enough to join our voices of concern and to not leave those of us who do speak our minds or sound needed warning alarms out by ourselves without back-up and cover, support and all the rest. Where has that gone, what has changed here recently???

Glad to see you're back Roy. Your voice is certainly needed these days. Have a good weekend folks...
Paul

I wasn't happy about some of the things that were going on in the past, and I spoke out about it.

But, moving forward I do think at some point one has to make a decision based on the product AND its EULA. Do I wish the EULA were more user-friendly, yes. But, it's not. However, I have still chosen to purchase, subscribe and/or use Amazing Charts. I have weighed the pros and cons, and that is my decision. Everyone can do the same. That does not mean that I am tacitly agreeing to the EULA Amazing Charts has made me sign.

I do think and expect that if I do not pay for a subscription, I no longer will be able to acquire and use new versions and updates. I will no longer have support, such that it is. But, even though the EULA does state I could lose my license and my software if I do not subscribe, I think the liklihood of that occurring is quite small, and I am just not worried about it. As an analogy, I have read through the entire HIPAA rules and regulations, and I do not fear the HIPAA police. Do you know what the rules are regarding email and HIPAA? Did you know that you must call Office B and ask the name of the person who will receive the fax BEFORE faxing ANYTHING that could be considered confidential? Did you know that the person above MUST call you back when she/he receives the fax? If these do not occur, then one has committed a HIPAA violation. Did you know that the silly and unenforceable disclaimer at the bottom of emails are supposed to be typed in an 8 font? And, many of these carry fines and even jail terms.

It just doesn't seem as though Amazing Charts is going to remove this language from its EULA. This language was most likely put in there by attorneys. And, simply because it is there, does not mean it is enforceable. From the posts I read, it doesn't sound like some are as concerned about the license agreements and its implications as they are angry with Jon that he won't remove it. I recognize that AmazingCharts,Inc is not as warm and fuzzy as it was back in 2003 when I purchased it. But, neither do I expect them to stay that way given the growth of the company.

I don't base my decision on whether to subscribe to Amazing Charts based on the company's demeanor but rather on the fact that it is the best software out there fore the money. Again, that doesn't mean I agree with the EULA. It is just a reality I have come to.

Finally, my position on the above does not in any way affect how I feel about anyone that thinks differently. It also does not mean I would not support them if it came to that.

@Roy, I appreciate your comments. Good debate is the essence of the American Experience.


I think an important distinction must be made. A EULA which CLAIMS they can go into my computer and delete something, is very different from the REALITY that they cannot. I have a Cisco Pix 501 harware Firewall, which virtually 100% blocks anyone from getting into my server. Even if they get into my server, I have a second network adapter in my server that they must traverse a software firewall in order to get on my network. Even IF they manage to do that, they cannot delete anything without logging into my server. They will never guess the pass-phrase. So they'll never get into my server. So I'm not worried about AC hacking into my computer to delete anything.

Secondly, we all must remember a VERY important point. Patients' charts (whether paper or digitized) belong to the patient. While we own the computer hardware or the paper upon which the information is recorded, the patient owns the information. Therefore, it would be illegal for AC to deliberately delete or otherwise destroy the patients' information.

It is generally the responsibility of a vendor of a medical record to assist in converting data for exportation (unless of course a member has not purchased the AC's Angel Guardian Support). So IF they make it subscription, and IF a users says F#*& That!, then AC will need to help make the data usable so that user can export it to another database. If they refused to help, and you lost your data as a result, you have a very nice lawsuit on your hands. ALL of your patients have a very nice lawsuit on their hands as well.

For these reasons, I think AC would be stupid for simply deleting our information.

By the way, you are keeping backups right? They simply cannot find all of your remote backup media (DVD's, CD's, thumb drives, FTP sites, external hard drives). Your information would still maintain its integrity.

So will they delete your program? Maybe, but I doubt it. Will they delete mine...I've got enough security to be confident in its integrity. Therefore, I pose the following challenge to anyone on this Board: try to hack into my computer and delete AC. I guarantee anyone will fail.



I am Importing ALL of my paper charts, and throwing the paper into the dumpster. If AC falters, I'm done for good. Plus my patients will hate me losing their records. I agree, having the program yanked is unacceptable. However, it is for the legal repercussions that you mention why I believe Dr Bertman will never physically remove your program which you purchased under the OLD EULA.


While I don't recall seeing anything about raising the cost to $10,000 for AC, that is rather steep for me. I'd rather keep my records as MS Word documents than pay $10,000 for any EMR. I will happilly pay the updates, no problem for me.


I'm not rolling my eyes. I can see the point of your argument, however I do not feel all points are reasonable or likely. Maybe you are right and AC becomes a horrible program. Maybe you are right and they raise the price to $10,000/year.


Yu are clearly right in that change is inevitable. I sincerely hope that AC's change is a positive one, not a negative one. I think we could all give Dr. Bertman and AC a fair chance to prove they have everyone's better interests in mind, NOT just money.


Keep your network server robust, and keep plenty of backups on hand. These are good practices anyway, and will prevent AC from disabling anything....unless they remove your license. Only that case your product will not work properly. However again, you have patient data on your computer. This is not YOURS and is not AC's. The data belongs to patients. They must allow for patients to get their data off your computer. If they don't, then sue them.



With all respect Roy, ultimately for those of us that don't like a program have the authority to cancel our subscription and use a different program.

@Bert

I agree. AC won't do it. In my case, they CAN'T do it. If they terminate my license, then they have the responsibility to convert that patient data into another format such that my patients can still access their data. Vinny said on a post that the lawyers got to John. They made him put in things that will have little impact on use. I will believe this. I must believe this. I have no choice but to believe it.

@Paul,

I am wondering how worried Dr. Bertman is about this forum? He may see only a very few small minority. He might figure that AC can afford to lose a few members, if they can gain thousands more.


I agree with you Paul, there may be purpose and intent. However, the intent may not be the one you presuppose. I won't guess or speculate what that intent may be. However, some more specific clarification from Dr. Bertman sounds in order. Obviously there is some confusion on this matter.

While Microsoft TECHNICALLY could inactivate my programs, they won't do it. Why? Because I comply with their EULA. I have to maintain the same degree of trust in AC as I do Microsoft. Microsoft WANTS my business. AC WANTS your business. They won't have YOUR business or MINE if they raise the price to $10,000 or create roadblocks or go deactivating people's copies of the program. Word will get out, and no one will use AC.

Fear not, God will show us the way.

@Bert

I think there is a lot of emtion running wild. Let's see what happens with V4. Ultimately, if you like your current version, keep using it. Don't pay for updates and just keep the current program. You all joined under one EULA, which contained fine print. Sounds like you all read the fine print. I have not read it until afterward.

I've never read a EULA previously. I always agree to the EUlA's, otherwise you can't active said computer program.


I agree with you Bert, completely.

Finally, I see all of you as colleagues and do not think any less of you because I may disagree with your positions. If we all agreed, life wouldn't be interesting. I hope there are no hard feelings.
Respectfully submitted.

Wow- interesting discussion! I wouldn't totally ignore the EULA, but I wouldn't give it the importance that some have stated. It should possibly be reworded as to alleviate some of the expressed concerns. You might wish to discuss this further in conference at the ACAC this summer. Just be sure that before you sign the contract that you have a way to access your records in the future should you have to switch to another EMR.

Nobody usually reads EULAs, and owners of the EMR software and their lawyers always try to make the EULA as far reaching as possible in case of future litigation, since there are no laws currently that really address this issue well. Although written by lawyers, the EULA frequently contains language that is purposely vague and at times, favors their clients (the owners) and may not be enforceable. The problem is, you don’t want to get into future expensive litigation with a software owner over contract law issues just because you ignored what the EULA stated. Most EMR owners will refuse to make concessions to what is in the EULA, and many, s.a. what I’ve read at emrupdate years ago with the likes of Praxis, will refuse to sign on with a purchaser if said purchaser refuses to accept the EULA. They don't frequently know what's in their own EULAs, so to do so would require consultation with their lawyers and could cause problems with other EMR clients.

An EMR (electronic medical record) is the organized collection of all records about an individual patient stored in the computer systems and databases of all the providers who have provided care to that patient. It conveys an interface to your property rightly owned by both the physician and the patient. It is up to you, the purchaser of an EMR to make sure that at the time of purchase, that you will have access to your data in an organized, readable manner should you decide to move on to another data interface ("EMR").

The Department of Health and Human Services' HIPAA Privacy Rule in 2002 gave patients more control and to examine their health information. Any entity that stands in the way of HIPAA could be legally held responsible to make that data available to both the physician and the patient.

As a programmer, I’ve seen that Jon makes the table data very accessible- just look at the addin that I wrote a few weeks back that accesses simple data- the patient last name, first name, date of birth and chart number easily. In the MS Access platform you can encrypt the database code by writing an “MDE” file, but the table data can usually be seen "in the raw" easily. You can encrypt it beginning with MS Access 2007, but that makes the data accession slower and can cause corruption, and again it's based on a password technology that can be broken. Any password that one applies can be broken by any number of password crackers out there that are available for either a small fee or for free. In fact, there now exists crackers to break into the MDE too… so not even the project code is 100% protected. You can even hide the tables, but a good programmer can extract the tables into a new “container” effortlessly.

So it comes down to who you are dealing with- if the owner of the software is credible, as is Jon, then at least for the short-term you have nothing to worry about. In the long-term, it’s a crapshoot. Heck, at emrupdate that is one of the things that I’ve argued over and over about- folks shouldn’t spend mega-bucks for an EMR for “protection”, as the enterprise EMRs have just as much chance of being bought out or going bankrupt as the smaller, cheaper EMRs. The only difference is that the end-user has more money at risk. Even CCHIT, which tries to guarantee “assurance” has had several EMRs on their list suffer financial troubles with one even going bankrupt within the first year of CCHIT's existence. Amazing Charts can be sold off to a totally new owner at which time you’ll have to reassess your EMR options. In fact, the odds are that it will happen. That is the nature of software industry.

So if in the far future you have problems with your EULA, you'll have to rely more on a programmer than with a lawyer, but you'll need both.

Cheers,
Al

Bibliography:
• “The Michigan EMR Initiative”, http://www.memri.us/faq.html
• “EMR Ownership Quesitons” , http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/166979199.html
• “Digital Rights Management from a Consumer’s Perspective”, http://www.obs.coe.int/oea_publ/iris/iris_plus/iplus8_2005.pdf.en

>>> I am Importing ALL of my paper charts, and throwing the paper into the dumpster. If AC falters, I'm done for good.

As you know, I have my own MS Access EMR that I've put together over 17 years of practice, which is not unlike AC.

What I've done with my records is to have my "CCR"-like general and medical patient data updated as time goes by. My EMR will have some SOAP notes and reports too, but all my old records go into PDF folders via scanning into PaperPort and I also use Word as a folder for certain graphics, s.a. EKG's, pictures, and other reports. I then use MS Access to search for these patient folders in a specified location inside Windows Explorer.

This way I keep my backend tables small, light, and can minimize corruption and loss of data.

Al and all,

Thanks for your insights.

It's time for me to perform my legislative duties for my medical society. I think physician/consumer protection legislation would be timely to present to the House of Delegates, this year.

Do you have any language or wording that I may want to use to protect users from unscrupulous vendors (AC excluded, I hope).

In our community, the majority of physicians have bought into an ASP system that they feel is not providing basic support. They supported their home grown ASP vendor enthusiastically and I doubt that these souls went through the permutations of possibilities and blindly agreed to their EULA. Now, they grumble and whine, but are afraid to terminate as they did not come up with an end plan when they bought the subscription agreement. I believe that their vendor can charge a hefty price to convert their data stored in super-secret locations (probably in the United States)to a usable format.

WHEREAS, commercial law has not been able to keep up with rapid advancement in technology,
WHEREAS, legal challenges on issues regarding rights of ownership of patient related data have yet to fully "rear its ugly head", and such legal challenges would be costly to all those involved, and may jeopardize medical practices,
WHEREAS, CCHIT is represented heavily by a consortium of EMR vendors with little or no input from end users, (exhibit A)
WHEREAS, EMR vendors have inserted language in EULA which is vague or in some cases implied rights to vendors not yet subjected to legal scrutiny, (Exhibit B, C, D, E, F, G, and H),
WHEREAS, individual end-users may have difficulty interpreting the ramification of EULAs written in legal language not readily comprehensible,

RESOLVED, that the AMA seek legislation establishing that EMR vendors are held legally responsible to keep patient data accessible to their end-user,

RESOLVED, that the AMA seek adoption of language to standardize EULA for EMR softwares and ASP agreements, and that this language be incorporated in any patient related software (either specifically in writing or implied),

RESOLVED, that legal reprentation be provided for members in cases where member(s) be subjected to loss of use of patient data, or the data access is withheld via software program, deactivation, or programming designed to cripple the function of the software.

@Roy,

Roy, it is good to see you back on the boards. I want you to know that I have read all of your posts, and I see where you are coming from. It sounds like Adam and Alborg have as well. I can assure you that I find your input anything but trivial. And, not everyone has the technical savvy as Adam when he comes to firewall and backups and the like. God knows if I tried to set up SBS with two network cards, and yet he wouldn't sleep until he did.

I think it is important for you and Paul to point out the inaccuracies of the EULA and the wording contained therein. As Adam says, most of us just press yes or we wouldn't be able to use PDF, Microsoft, Symantec, etc. Even the free stuff is the same way. I think the difference here is we read it. A good analogy, I think, is I just a baby with RSV bronchiolitis in the hospital. He is doing much better. In fact, had I seen him in my office today, I would have never admitted him. But, he is staying until tomorrow. Why, because his sats were 85 on RA. Would he do find at home like that? Probably, but the difference is we know what the sats are.

Here in Maine, we have two lawyers who are president and vice-president of the MMA. It is the only reason I pay my dues. They give me free advice on everything. I think you should be proactice and send your associations attorney to the site which contains both the EULA and the other document which I don't know what it is. Let them give some advice. I once offered to pitch in $50.00 to let a good contact attorney look at the EULA for all of us. You know, six people -- $300, that should give us at least an hour. Maybe solve this once and for all.

Roy, Paul mentions that it seems I am flip flopping on this issue. I don't think I am. I just think I have continued to evolve with it, and I am trying to see everything clearly enough to make a good decision.

Roy, you and Leslie, Barbara, Donna, Brian, Vinny, Wayne and a few others make up what I call the "Big 10." Maybe there are a few more. We have spent many hours on the boards helping each other out, and all of us have made valuable contributions from the small suggestions on features to politics. I have alway valued your opinion and, in talking with Brian and the others, I know that many, if not all, have.

I know it sounds crazy for me as a doctor who, as you know, has a ridiculous amount of things to get done in a day to worry about your wanting to stay with AC, but I do. And, I don't want AC to become EMRUpdate. So, if there is anything I can do to help you with your decision or anything else as it pertains to AC, please let me know. I don't think there is anyone on here who wouldn't.

One last thought: Medicine is a very stressful business. I am forced to think about it at least 16 hours a day. So, when there is a thread that is 100% about silly stuff, it brightens my day. But, like a TV, I can surf channels and go back and forth between serious threads and silly ones.

Bert and the Greater Gang,
Bert sorry if I ruffled your feathers here, but yes I was sincerely confused and upset by what seemed to be your change in position on this subject. I am glad to see you truly are the man I always thought you were. But damn if you don't play a mean devil's advocate sometimes (Although good for really teasing things out frequently).

Althought most people would be correct in saying that:
1) Althought most vendors have some really messed up, pro-vendor langue in their contracts and most of us simply click "yes" everyday, and that most vendors such as giants like MS would never bother to go after their smallest end users, AC is a little different. WE are all but little users and there is a whole lot less cover here for any of us. We have seen at least once that we certainly know about, and I believe there were 2-4 others that were spoken of last year, that there were times when the langue as it is now written was actual thrown in a licensed user's face. So please; let's not forget our history here folks.

This is why this whole line of discussion is here. It is not simply an exercise in intellectual debate, but instead a valid real concern. These terms are really in here for a preconceived reason, with intent to execute them if certain conditions prevail. As it was said in Casino Royale, the first kill is always the hardest, after that it gets much easier once the person has crossed that mental threshold once before. AC has now certainly crossed the threshold. Therefore, I feel we (Ourselves and Roy and Others) are validly concerned for all users whether they know they should be or not.

2) I whole heartedly agree as I was thinking the same thing here over the weekend, that Bert and Adam are talking legal and possible actual terms and possiblities, while many times I was talking more, how does one feel about the product or the vendor. Yes there were a lot of personal feelings in there. They are hard to forget. The company has certainly evolved and so our relationship with the company and its people has changed. Such as the mention of be careful of what you wish for.

But the inaccuraces also speak to how the corporation is promoting itself publicly verses what it says more hidden away in fine print. It is just so not "AC" as Jon tries to promote it. I would just think that it would be a great and positive thing to have both sides match and not in the negative way, but instead in a way that matches the "we will always treat you fairly" way. It is a major part of what attracted many of us here to AC in the first place. The corporate philosophy was so much different than all these other, large, greedy, ugly enterprise type vendors that saw us nothing more than a "conduit to their money" as I have put it many times before.

To put it simply, many of us did actually buy AC not only for the program itself, but for the greater corporate image and policies that it was and to some extent still is promoting. At one time they were brave enough to put those things in writing too. At times I sometimes wonder who believes in the "spirit of AC" more, some of us stauchest users or Jon and AC? That is what our Ben and Jerry's, Waterbury VT thing is all about. That is what an AC user meet is all about. Yes the tech and other stuff will be great, but so is the Gestault of it too.

And having thought we had purchased the product outright legally as laid out in the orignal EULA, keeping an old copy so as to always be able to access our old records was our god forbid, end game, exit stratigy. Having the terms and conditions changed on us in this manor, basically destroyed our dooms day back-up plans. I am sure this is what Roy and many others had in mind as well. To take this away from us only after we have thought we had (known we have???) purchased it is really rude and ethically if not legally wrong.

And yes if one day AC gets aquired by some less admirable larger corporate giant, I would like to have some amount of comfort in knowing that at least Jon and AC gave us some amount of a leg to stand on as a parting good-by present. Again, that is what a good contract is all about. It is part of your exit plans and it should be.

But here is something I suggested to Jon a very long time ago as a way of providing a service to some, a new stream of revenue for AC which really is good for all of us too, and could be marketed in the best of the old we will always treat you fairly. Some people want the ease and convenience of an ASP model for many reasons such as logging in from many locations, be outside billing, off-site charting, multiple office just to name a few. Now as long as someone has reasonable computers all their machines and locations can easily access and build one singular database. There is also the reasons of not having to do alot of network things, maintain servers, perform back-ups and all sorts of other computer maintainance and headaches.

So I suggested to Jon that he (AC) start to offer AC in both the standard, own your own, purchase your own type way, as well as the new virtual ASP fashion, we'll take care of almost all the headaches and issues for you and to do this in a reasonable monthly, quarterly, annual fee much like all the other ASP's.

But here is the big linch pin, difference in my plan verses almost everyone else's. To insist, since AC is so reasonably priced to begin with, that ASP users must still purchase and legally own licensed copies of AC!!! And here is how and why. Because Jon could promote it to the HILT! We will not hold your data hostage, we will always treat you fairly, and even in the unlikely event that we do have a big falling out and both sides choose to go their separate ways, you will always be able to access, use, maintain and even continue to grow your database in AC. This is the new potential "AC", "we will always treat you fairly" type of way of providing an ASP type EMR software because is respects all of the issues on chart ownership and responsibility we have all been discussing. Now he can make lots of money by showing all these other vendors for being the SOB's that they are while providing a needed service for many users at the same time. A true win-win for everyone. Heck if done in the way i envisioned it, I would seriously consider signing up for it for our office, no joke.

I can not and did not claim this idea to be my own, but I felt it fit Jon and AC to a "T" and would help move him into a new King of the mountain position on these matters by taking that AC ethical high road and actually applying it to what was once a negative situation. I first heard of such an Idea from an Altapoint VAR. This VAR (Value Added Retailer) of Altapoint medical billing software (x-linkable to AC which is how I found it) was doing the ASP hosting and they said this was their arriagment with Altapoint, that the customer still had to purchase at least one full licensed copy of the program. I thought it was an awesome solution to this virtual verses own it ourself debate and again could make Jon and AC look even better while opening up a new group of users and revenue for him and the company.

So as you can see, Nancy and I really used to like Jon sincerely to the bottom of our provider hearts and really wanted (Still do as a matter of fact) to see AC not just survive but to thrive and grow. And we were even will to assist how and where we might be able to. At one time we were very involved supportive users, but this change in the enviornment has us concerned for quite some time now.

3) Al I am so glad to see another software designer, developer shares and embraces my concept of the chart and medical record as being the "jointly held intellectual property" of both the patient (it is their PHI after all) as well as that of the provider and/or institution that creates it. Doctors and other providers must be recognized as owning them, because at any time we may have to produce or access them whether for Medical, legal or financial reasons. This is your version of what is happening in your examrooms in your own words. Heck there are carriers that want to try and use the excessive use of templates verses freehand charting as a means of trying to extort give backs from providers (watch out all you Rocket Romanos out there...). But what are you recording but the health history of the patients you are treating so it is validly somewhat their property as well, right?

On this I would love to have this concept included in any legislation that passes on a state or federal level. Or perhaps it needs to be in a separate bill unto itself. Roy you seem pretty good at wording things the way lawmakers like to see. Think you could whip something up???

So in closing we have always wanted nothing but AC's continued success and to even be a part of helping and supporting how and where we could, that growth and success. This is why we used to step up more readily to Beta new features and releases. I think that we here at Village Medical have shown our good intentions and unfortunately this post facto change in the contract language equally says something about the corporate intent and changes at AC. If such is not really their intent, then simply be done with it all ready, make those of us who is concerns so feel better and get it off the table and off of the radar screen already. Lead in the best of ways, with that old AC we shall always treat you fairly type of corporate philosophy, lead by its policies. Pretty simple really.
Paul and Nancy

This appears to be more apropos a place to continue discussion of EULA, if any. I think there has been much thought placed on this issue and not much has changed. A simple answer from Jon Bertman would end all of this talk.

The question is: "Do you intend on shutting users out of access to their own medical record by inactivating Amazingcharts?"
Is it going to take a trip to Branson, MO to get an answer to this question?

Well, then, why don't you just email him (jon@amazingcharts.com) with your question?

Brian,
I think the deafening silence speaks a thousand words here, don't you? Goodness knows he knows what is going on here and that it continues to muddy the waters and leave a certain number of folks feeling less than secure around here. But instead there is simply a void here with all of us reading and trying to understand the lastest version of any copy of the EULA to come about. We as the folks who were given the actual nuclear option are not the ones who will be sending such emails.

And thanks for taking the lead here and trying to put this all back together and on the proper threads where it belongs. But I will say this, that this one single topic permeates and trumps almost all others. Without a strong inherent confidence in the fact that the program will always be there for one to use and at least access our charts, our data, our intellectual propery, any and all other issues collapse and fall by the way side.

I gather also that the terms and conditions in the termination section need to be addressed and this has been borught up here before as well. Does terminated mean no longer on the board and longer having tech support and updates, or does it mean that one must give up all their copies of AC? This was what was told to us back during the nuclear holocast; 30 days to remove all copies of AC itself. Now that is pretty harsh CCHIT my friend.

As though one could actually make an informed choice and transfer all their data on suprise 30 day notice.... I think everyone ought to sit and think about that idea for a moment, envision the the confusion, the late night meetings, the attempt to research the possible choice, reach an actual plan of attach and hopefully pull it all off in 30 days... Very concerning indeed.

I can still remember how my stomach felt, how my head was truely spinning as the words first hit my ears. As said by "C" in "A Bronx Tale", "it was as though someone had flushed the toilet and I was spinning down out of control, my life going down that toilet" (I know this is not a direct quote, I can't remember the exact line now, but it sure expresses how Nancy and I felt that day). Such things get forever burned into ones conscience and memories, although like most memory research has proven, it probably does evolve and change with time and new experiences.

We are not a bit sorry or remorseful in the fact that we finally came out and said what we said or brought this topic up for public knowledge and debate. This was a choice made by both me and Nancy to speak up as doing so would have potentially long and hard impacts on this practice and our patients. And at first we just hide and licked out wounds out of sight fearful that such a thing could be brought down upon us again. But we felt first we needed to try and correct this for our own protection and just as importantly, how eithically wrong it would be not to tell our tale and let the greater AC community know what had happened and what could possibly happen to any one of you. Only with all of your public support can we survive here then and now.

At first some people (even some who are now our good friends here on the board) just didn't want to believe that such things were in the EULA or even worse that such a thing could have actually happened right here in our little AC'ville, Ben & Jerry's, Waterbury VT, like community; and so we took some serious "hits" here. But with the support and understanding of a few good, dear close friends we survived and now all of you are more informed and better off for it I hope you would agree. Better to know and go in with your eyes open than with your eyes closed, yes?

As much as some people don't like controversy, run from it, try to be the peace makers or blow it off as pie in the sky so as to make themselves feel better and to allow themselves to sleep better at night (goodness knows what some peoples motivation are), shooting the messenger only serves to avoid the real issue at hand. I never wanted to be that person, but this is the hand that I was delt here and so here we are today, all of us... AC, Paul and Nancy, and the rest of all of you. I'm not sorry if we made some of you uncomfortable, that is your own issue to deal with not mine, not Nancy's, we did what we felt was the only ethical thing to do, to inform other users and healthcare providers about the reality of the situation. And so there you have it... Thanks for listening.

Good Night and Good Luck,
Paul and Nancy

PS: Did any of you know that there are clauses in the EULA that say basically if you bring up an idea or suggestion here on the board to improve on AC or suggest a new feature, that it becomes the intellectual property of AC.com and the greater company. Imagine someone like Bert who has a great programer of his own and is very generous with his suggestions, having a claim of intellectual property filed against him because something similar to his suggestion here on the board and therefore now the property of AC, is a feature in a program that he and his programmer developed and are attempting to market.

Contracts and legal terms can be very complicated and upsetting, but it sure doesn't mean that we shouldn't do our due dilligence to understand to the best of our ablity what we are all getting into or to attempt having more favorable terms and conditions included or revised in any given contract that we enter into.... And to have to accept a new contract with much less favorable terms in it just so one can access the support and updates that one has properly paid for is equally upsetting to many of us here. I entered here under these terms and conditions, I shouldn't be strong armed into accepting new less favorable ones, just to gain access to what I have paid for and may even be required to pay for just to continue to even use or lease the program. Now how crazy is that????

I don't find the fact that Jon is silent on this topic on the User Board to be significant. Jon's posts are *extremely* rare these days, and he may not be aware that this conflict exists, or he may be aware and may not want to get into a public spitting contest. Hence, my suggestion to email him.

Roy says that's the only question about the EULA he wants an answer to. Are there any others? Heck, I'll email him!

Add the termination one. Does termination mean you've got 30 days to get out of Dodge or does it mean just simply no more support and/or updates? Does he still hold to the contention of making someone remove all copies of AC from all computers as part of termination? The termination clause states without reason or any reason for either party, so not so theoretically I wake up with a bug up my butt this morning and therefore I can terminate you, plain and simple, no explaination or causes needed to be justified... Not very reassuring.

Brian,

I agree with you. Private communications are probably best with Dr. Bertman.

I think it is most appropriate that the owner, CEO, chief programmer of A.C. remain off the message boards. The name of this message board is Amazing Charts User Board. While he may use AC, he has a completely different role than any of us. This is really designed for us to discuss whatever we want, and to meet really nice people like yourself.

If he replied to some posts, he may feel obligated to reply to more. He probably doesn't have time to follow all of the threads.

To draw an analogy to Microsoft (most of us use M.S. based O.S.'s) Bill Gates is completely inaccessible to us. We could email him all day, and we'll never get a reply. We could post all we want, and he'll never get on a message board. Talk about being silent.

At least Jon is willing to stay in touch with the users enough to attend the ACUC, reply to emails, etc.

Okay, Roy and Paul,

Let me say right off the bat that I don't relish the idea of annoying Jon right now, while he is debugging version 3.7. I would not appreciate it, if I were he.

However, I will email him with your questions, if it will help bring this issue to some kind of resolution.

But, before I do, let me ask you a couple of questions:

Roy, your question for Jon is unclear to me. You asked, "Do you [Jon] intend on shutting users out of access to their own medical record by inactivating Amazingcharts?"

To which I ask: Which users -- legal or illegal? Shutting them out how? Inactivating AmazingCharts how?

Are you wondering if Jon has the ability to remotely shut down Amazing Charts if people don't pay for their annual maintenance fee? Please be specific.

There is a clause in the EULA about termination, but it seems to be directed toward users who wish to terminate their contract with Amazing Charts, not the other way around. Could you copy and paste specific language in the EULA that has you concerned? I will post the link to the EULA again here:

http://www.amazingcharts.com/company/EULA.pdf

Paul, your question is also somewhat unclear to me. I would also ask you to please copy and paste the specific paragraph and language to which you are referring, regarding termination. Just go to the EULA link above, copy and paste it to this thread.

If you will both help me to understand your questions, I will write Jon a very nice letter, and maybe we can put all this to rest.

AMAZINGCHARTS WILL REMOTELY TURN OFF THE PROGRAM:
At regular intervals, the downloaded program will connect to the Amazing Charts servers via an Internet connection and automatically verify current services and verify that the client is in good standing (i.e., has paid for the license, annual maintenance fees, and any other service fees which have been ordered AND has not had their license revoked). Without this
intermittent verification, Amazing Charts may cease to operate.

PAY WHATEVER FEE WE DECIDE TO CHARGE OR BE TERMINATED:
You agree to pay AmazingCharts.com, Inc.'s current service charges for any Services you chose to use. These service fees, which are subject to change, are posted on the Web site at AmazingCharts.com. Changes in service fees will be notified to you by posting on the Amazing Charts website. You agree that AmazingCharts.com, Inc. may bill you for the Service fees as posted on the Web site.

IS THERE SUPPORT OR NO SUPPORT DESPITE PAYING FEES FOR IT:
Support for Amazing Charts is NOT included with the Program. Any support provided, whether purchased or not, is done at the sole discretion of Amazing Charts and is covered by this EULA, including the No Warranty and Limitation of Liability paragraph below.

IF YOU DON'T PAY WE WILL HOLD YOUR MEDICAL DATA HOSTAGE:
Once you purchase the license registration key, this License is effective until terminated. This License will automatically terminate if you fail to comply with any term of this License. It will also terminate if you do not continue to subscribe and pay for Amazing Charts Update Services, which are renewable annually on the anniversary of the date you receive the Amazing Chart Registration Code.

YOU MUST DESTROY ANY EVIDENCE OF POSSESSING THE PROGRAM FROM THE HARDWARE SO YOU WILL WIND UP WITH ABSOLUTELY NO MEDICAL RECORDS FOR YOUR PRACTICE!!!
Upon termination of the License for any reason, you agree that you will immediately delete all copies of the Program from your computers and cease using Amazing Charts or any associated services.

Roy,
I almost posted one of my round about, less than to the point Paul postings on the topics you just hit here... Man I just love how "nail on the head" you are most of the time... Thanks.

Folks, I ask you all if you knew for sure that such termination terms were at least once that we all know of for sure, were actually brought out, and threatened to be used, held over the head of a real AC using provider and their practice, would you still feel so gosh darn comfortable having such language in your EULA contract??? Would you all still be so quick to just make this all go away? What gives here folks? Can someone please explain this one part of it to us? This is not merely an academic exersice here, this is honest concern over the reality of the situation...

We and Roy are not just raising the roof here because we like to make trouble, it took a long time for either practice to move forward with bringing up these upsetting and troubling issues in this public forum. Both practices were concerned that such terms could and would be used against them for speaking up... How many of you remember the threads way back when about free and or offensive speech on the user board that became an off shoot of all of this. How many of you know that your use of speech here, is defined in the this contract as well?

I would love to see AC take the lead on these thorny issues, let's all teach these CCHIT sob's and enterprise sized EMR and other large software vendors a lesson in proper medical ethics. That when medical records are on paper only it is very clear to all comers that the intellectual property rights to those records are the "joint" intellectual property of both the provider who charted the encounter and provided the care, as well as the property of the patient whose chart it is. This is not a subject for debate, it is accepted FACT, plain and simple. Can you say HIPAA??? And furthermore there are many other entities that have a vested and possibly an legal interest in said charts. The governemnt, any insurance carriers that are involved in any claim from that patient, and perhaps the courts and lawyers that may be involved in any legal action that may be launched against the provider of the care. Again this is plain accepted fact, that no one would dispute.....

So tell me if one vendor's intellectual property rights can suddenly come on in the middle of all this and displace or trump any and all of these parties access to the records and charts why would any of us in our right mind, no matter what the potential benefits of any program might be, sign up for such displacement and replacement of intellectual propery rights? So if you write your charts in freehand on good old pen and paper the state of property rights to the record is how is has been and for the most part should be (I don't like the gov't or the carriers sticking their noses in here too much, but let's not go there right now), but the moment one chooses to go "E", with an EMR all that gets thrown out the window??? Come on, do you think I was born yesterday? Were all of you? For goodness sake folks, please wake up and start making some coffee here.

And guess what, even though this private corporation, the software vendor will attempt or possibly succeed in keeping you, your patient, the carriers and the lawyers all from accessing the important information in the chart, guess who is going to pay the price for that lack of availability??? That's right, all of you the providers. It is your responsiblity to protect and produce those records as and when needed or required, plain and simple. The vendor may or may not get hit a little bit, but it is all of you providers of care that will pay the price for the vendors over zelous control of property rights. Fines, legal hastle, possible jail time, all because you chose to do what should have been the right thing and move forward with the new promoted, and almost required technology... BULLCCHIT thank you very much.

Albert Einstein once said he was sure our technology had exceeded our humanity in controling and properly using our technology, in reference to the "A Bomb". Are we here in the field on medicine still that far behind our technology in terms of our humanity??? It is clear that our laws on these matters are far behind and so it comes down to private parties like ourselves to hack it out with our vendors. A long time ago Nancy and I really trusted AC, it is one of the main reasons we really wanted AC to create a PM of their own. After seeing how most of these other software vendors act and treat folks like us, we would have rather stayed with AC. But with such terms and conditions as Roy has so properly well laid out here, combined with indisputable rights of intellectual property that I have spoken of, then add to that, that we know for sure, that the negative terms were applied at least once if not more, We would prefer to put our faith in a properly constructed legal document that properly and fairly, fairly to all parties, including the poor patient who doesn't even have the ability to be in on the choices we make for his or her own property rights, defines and defends all interested parties... And in light of all this indisputable evidence, is that really asking so much??? We think not.

I still would like to know why this bother so many of you folks to the point of attempting to make it go away without really addressing the issues at hand? What gives here, I for one just don't get it???

Actually I sort of do, some of you who have studied actually Psychology and not just psychiatry, might know the term "Cognitive Dissidence" which speaks to the inner termoil and the inablity to hold two diametrically opposed points of view. The idea of AC being this wonderful product and more importantly a wonderful company with high ethics. This happens to people after they have made a large investment in something be time and energy or money, when such a thing is opposed by such a differing perspective and realities, a total shift in paradym (sorry I know its over used, but it works here) it is truely hard to hold both ideas and belief systems inside one person and so something has to give. Or in many cases in terms of it happening in a social setting or network, the system looks to restore order, just as the individual might, and so they will go to great lengths to restore balance in light of such unsetting conflict... Is that what is happening here on this board in terms of these issues here and now??? Can any of you control your inner conflict so as to allow yourselves to process this and act independent of your gut need to restore balance and hear this out and actually process the facts here? I'm whipped, I've gotta go get some rest here... Have a good night one and all....
Paul and Nancy

Paragraph 1) I will give you that, but I simply don't think it can be done.

Paragraph 2) Your heading is incorrect. This seems to clearly talk about the services such as links to lab vendors, etc.

Paragraph 3) That is the weird one. I agree. Support or no support?

Paragraph 4) A termination of your license is NOT the same thing as holding your data hostage.

Paragraph 5) Most vendors have that in their EULA. Enforcing it is nearly impossible. It's like HIPAA and the HIPAA police.

First of all, let me clear up the question of whether I have flip flopped from my position from the past. When this first came up and I read the EULA, my position was mostly that much of the statements in the EULA could not be enforced. This was to allay any fears from people who were concerned about its presence.

As to my concern that AMAZING CHARTS, INC. could ever take my patient data, this is something I lose no sleep over. While organizations such as Microsoft can and do send Windows Genuine Advantage under the guise of Windows Updates, which can check the actual CD key and tell if your copy of Windows is legitimate and actually shut down Windows or remove functionality, this is more than likely well beyond the technology of AMAZING CHARTS, INC. Furthermore, while companies in all fields can and do ask that you return their software if you do not follow their licensing agreement, I do not know of one instance where a company actually was able to retrieve such software. As this could hardly be done over the Internet, the software vendor such as AMAZING CHARTS, INC., would physically have to come to your office, enter most likely without your permission, and actually remove your software. I would find this difficult to fathom.

It would seem to me that this entire issue over the EULA is not due to the actual worry that one’s data or software will be turned off or removed, but rather the fact that the language actually exists. The reason most people choose Accept rather than Not Accept when they install software is because if they don’t, they cannot install the software. How many computer users have ever installed a copy of software on two or more computers even though the EULA specifically stipulates that doing so violates the EULA? Most software companies state this in their EULA and do not have any way of knowing if you are abusing the license. Office 2000 and Windows 2000 did not require activation and one could install it illegally on more than one computer. Imagine typing hundreds of documents on this program only to have Microsoft legally ask you to destroy all documents made illegally.

Yes, there was a time when the EULA that Jon wrote was nothing more than a statement about bullshit. But, as a company grows, its EULA must change to reflect the increasing chances that users will abuse the license. Over time it becomes necessary to hire attorneys who write EULAs which are more in line with bigger software companies. We should be happy that 1) the subscription price is only $500 per year and 2) that we can use the product on as many PCs as we would like. Jon could easily change his policy to require one to license each copy, therefore making my charge annually $5,000, a price that is close to being out of my price range.

I am not sure which version it is, but one can go back to the version where the EULA did not contain such language. Users are free to use that version and not be subject to any of the language in the current EULA which some users find so objectionable. This decision would mean that you could no longer be eligible for upgrades or support. But, it is a choice one can make, nonetheless. I can see no language in prior EULAs that stated Jon could not change his pricing structure or licensing agreement. If taken to the extreme, Jon could simply start a new company and buy out AMAZING CHARTS, INC., just as Adaptec GoBack became Roxio GoBack and then Norton GoBack and Drive Image became Symantec Ghost.

I do not worry about the EULA, because I realize that most of its statements are not enforceable. I feel extremely comfortable that if I continue to pay my $500 annually, which is more than fair, my license and data are completely safe. As to the 30-day rule, I think that is more than enough time to copy your databases to a thumb drive and place them in a safety deposit box.

Someone drew the analogy between backing up one’s computer with a strategy that provides maximum security to data loss and not being concerned about the EULA. While I understand the analogy, it simply does not hold water. The chances of a hard drive malfunctioning or someone inadvertently deleting files is far greater than AMAZING CHARTS, INC. taking your data or forcing you to give up your program. Besides, you have choices for both. One can make a choice to back up his or her computer or not and one can make a choice to upgrade and accept the EULA or not.

I debate whether I should even comment on the EULA. Certainly, everyone on the boards has a right to express his or her opinions. On the other hand, I feel compelled to give the other side as there are people who cruise through looking at AMAZING CHARTS, INC., and I think they should at least have both sides of the story. I try to do it in as objective a way as possible without stating anything that could be interpreted as making fun of another user or making light of his or her opinions. I guess I do wonder where all this EULA talk is going and what good it is going to do. While many protest things that he or she knows will likely not change anything, it makes perfect sense to still speak out against it. However, my feeling is that Jon is not going to change the EULA and, therefore, the practicality of the issue is to either accept it or not.

Bert,

That's what I was gonna say!

I choose to update my software and agree to the new EULA.

I think you have to.

Roy and Paul:

I have really tried to come at your concerns with an open mind, but I can't see it from your viewpoint.

Roy, your screaming ALL CAPS headlines are really over the top, and I think your characterization of the EULA could be construed as slander. I think if I were Jon, and I could shut somebody's EMR off at a whim, you would be just about at the top of my list. Just a thought.

Paul, I am not suffering from cognitive dissonance, I just disagree with you. I will explain why below.

I am moving my clinic and I will be off the Board for a while. If you really want an answer to your concerns, your best chance is to email Jon yourself. I have corresponded with him a bit, and you will have your best luck if you keep it brief, civil, and to-the-point. I hope you are able to reach some kind of resolution to your conflict.

That said, here are my (hopefully) last thoughts on this subject.

"AMAZINGCHARTS WILL REMOTELY TURN OFF THE PROGRAM"
Like Bert, I'm not getting this one. There is a vast difference between Amazing Charts ceasing to operate vs. Jon remotely shutting off your program. For instance, if you don't update your program, it will inevitably become dysfunctional as operating systems and other software change through time.

However, let's grant the possibility of a remote shutoff. What kind of promises would you like Jon to make? Do you want Jon to solemnly swear not to randomly cut off your EMR in the middle of a patient encounter, on the whim of a moment? If you're going to do business with an individual or a company, you have to hope that they are going to behave rationally. It's like avoiding marriage because of the "til death do us part" clause.

"PAY WHATEVER FEE WE DECIDE TO CHARGE OR BE TERMINATED"
What's the problem here? I have to pay whatever fee Quizno's charges or I don't get a sandwich. Your patients pay whatever fee you decide to charge or you terminate them. Jon reserves the right to raise his prices from time to time (annually, in this case). Again I ask, what's the problem?

"IS THERE SUPPORT OR NO SUPPORT DESPITE PAYING FEES FOR IT?"
I agree with you that the verbiage here is confusing. However, don't you imagine that the answer is somewhere in the middle? If you don't pay for service, you don't get service. If you pay for service, you get service. If you don't get enough service, you politely complain. If your complaints are not addressed, you stop paying for service, and you look for another EMR. Amazing Charts doesn't want you to do that, so they try to keep you happy. That's how it's supposed to work.

"IF YOU DON'T PAY WE WILL HOLD YOUR MEDICAL DATA HOSTAGE"
If a person doesn't pay for Amazing Charts, should they get to use it? If a person does stop paying for Amazing Charts, can't you kind of assume they have decided to do something else for an EMR solution?

Most people would say that a person who decides to stop paying for Amazing Charts needs to also start making arrangements to get their data transferred to another EMR, or printed out. If they try to keep using an old copy, it will eventually FAIL, and then they will be up that fabled creek. I'm having my lab and correspondence printed out by an IT contractor right now, for filing in a new paper patient record (long story).

So, in what sense is the data being "held hostage"? Jon doesn't have the data; it's in your computer. Over time, the EULA says, Amazing Charts "may" cease to function. If you choose to terminate your agreement with Amazing Charts by ceasing payment, you have the responsibility to make sure your data is managed properly.

"YOU MUST DESTROY ANY EVIDENCE OF POSSESSING THE PROGRAM FROM THE HARDWARE SO YOU WILL WIND UP WITH ABSOLUTELY NO MEDICAL RECORDS FOR YOUR PRACTICE!!!"
Paul, the plain reading of this paragraph is that if your contract is Terminated, you are supposed to "immediately" remove Amazing Charts from everything you own. I can't find any mention of "thirty days," but like Bert says, who's going to enforce this?

But most people don't decide to stop using an EMR on a whim. They come up with a plan to change services, and if they decide to stop payment, they need to make arrangements in advance for printing of the records or data conversion, as described above.

I doubt Jon would terminate someone's contract on a whim. He is presumably in this for the money. If I were in his position and terminated someone's contract, it would be because they had crossed some kind of line, had become threatening or abusive to me or my staff, they were trying to cheat me, or were trying to use my software in an inappropriate way.

Thank you Bert and Brian for your thoughtful, sound and sane comments on this post. To others, who have posted some fairly outrageous personal comments this week, I have nothing to say...

Having trouble copying and pasting these articles that Al posted that I would really like to give a bump to so this many be a bit sloppy... Sorry. Any please read and digest these and then lets try and talk some more. Perhaps if it comes from another source stated in a different fashion it can be better understood... Thanks much....

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/166979199.html
http://www.memri.us/faq.html
http://www.obs.coe.int/oea_publ/iris/iris_plus/iplus8_2005.pdf.en

I capitalized to distinguish between my concerns and the language of the EULA. Perhaps, I could of done the quote box. Anyways, I don't want to ruffle other people's feather and that is not my intent. To make you all happy, I'm signing off this board. I'm sorry that I created anger and hostility. If you think Jon would be hostile and angry and call this "slander," I'm far better off not posting only praises on the board. That said, AC is a good program that has done me well over the past six years.
Anyways, thanks for all the help in the past. There were good days in the past and I will remember them.

Roy,

Just to be on record, your signing off the board won't make me happy. I would prefer you stay on it. Everyone knows it is hard to communicate effectively via email or boards or IM or whatever.

You may not believe it, but I consider you a friend. If I lived in your town, I would sit down and ask you to just let the whole EULA thing go. Why? Not because it isn't your right to defend your position or to give opinions on the board. It just seems like the whole subject has caused you a lot of frustration. I know I have no right to say how you feel, but I do remember the good old days when the topics were more along the lines of the double login or a better prescription writer.

Anyway, just wanted to go on record. Sometimes, it is a good idea to take a break. But, if you do go away, don't be gone long.

People,

Jon is addressing the EULA concerns regarding turning people off, etc, and I believe that there has been discussion on this. He has spent time and money discussing with very expensive attorneys the terms, and against their better advice (or worse advice, in my opinion) as I understand my meeting with Jon last February about this, this is being dropped.

I know I've been away for a rather extended break (details to follow, it's been a doozy).. but I'd rather not see people come to blows over this.

Roy, if you leave, you'll be missed.

V.

Just a quick food for thought, and a step back for perspective type of thing:

Obviously each and every person here must really love their AC, or none of us would be spending half as much time as any of us do posting and reading, and knocking things around here. I have a saying that I feel really fits here and it sort of goes like this:

"If I didn't give a damn, then it would just be easy to shut-up, and say or do nothing, I could easily just turn my back and ignore things. But it is exactly because I do give a damn, that I do care so much that I am pushing so hard. It is much harder to actually set-up, get your hands dirty, and to do the hard work of sticking your nose in, doing what is right or needs to be done."

Heck I even sort of say a modified version of this to my own kids when they get all mad at me for sticking to my guns, being their dad and setting limits or what have you. It would be easy to just let them do whatever they want, but it takes a real parent to be the heavy to do what's right, to set the limits and raise good kids. It's because I do love them and care for them so much.

Anyhow, I think this is getting a bit too heated but it is coming from a good place. And it is most probably because we all really do give a damn, we really do love and value our AC so it sort hits a bit hard and close to the bone. And the tone has gotten heated partically because we all really do give a damn, even though we may have different points of view here.

Bert and I were just talking today about our repect for one another and our friendship. And how we really apperciate the fact that we can sometimes really slug it out and that we don't have to agree, and yet we can still be really good friends who know that whatever the other says, we know that it is coming from a good and sincere place. And that if push came to shove, we know we could always count on one another to be there when the chips are down...

Anyhow, I just wanted to throw that all out there because I felt it was needed and might be of some use....

And as for you Roy, please don't go. I have really come to value you, your input as well as your friendship and support. You seem to be really down, and I must say I'm sort of feeling it too. It would be really sad to see you leave for good....

Paul

P.S.
Vinny,
How the hell are ya??? I know things were getting kind of rough for you last we spoke... Hope everything is OK with you and your practice.

Anyway, your input is all too welcome news. It is really wonderful and reasurring to hear that a decent part of these concerns have been heard and probably addressed. If they are as you say they are, then I for one want to be one of the first to get in line and say a big "Thanks" to Jon for hearing us out and working on this. Thanks for chimming in with this important update and once again send a big thanks to Jon for being "big enough".

Roy:

I can't speak for Jon, only myself, and what I think he might think is immaterial. My post was a "word to the wise", nothing more.

As far as posting "only praises", it won't take much perusal of my old posts to find criticism of Amazing Charts, but if we can't keep it constructive, what's the point?

As far as ALL CAPS go, I use them for subject headers myself. The problem was not the ALL CAPS key, it was what was typed in ALL CAPS. You type STRAWBERRIES in all-caps, no problem. You type YOU SUCK and people get upset. Again, it was just a word to the wise.

This thread is officially over. Thanks to everyone for participating.