Home Forums recs for basic virtualized server

Currently running peer-to-peer. 8 computers mostly 7 and 8 pro.

Looking to convert to a basic server system. Just run AC and probably Active Domain + backups. No sharepoint, no exchange.

Have a basic recent lenovo xeon server, will load up with memory & 300gb intel s3500 enterprise-lite ssd.

Want the system to be easy to backup and restart in case of hardware failure. Doesn't have to be real time failover, just not offline too long.

Thinking about installing Server 2012 r2 essentials. Run as a virtual machine on hyper-v and have it replicate to another basic box running hyper-v to use in case of hardware failure.

Thoughts? Reocmmendations? I'm just looking for 1 step up from peer to peer, just don't wan't my office to be dead in the water for too long if the server crashes. Difficultly level for implementing and reverting to replica in case of crash? I'm very tech saavy but never ran a modern server before.

Should we all be running virtualized servers now? With easier replication and cheap, capable hardware sounds like way to go in case of hardware failure, right?

thanks

larry

solo im
cincinnati

Hi Larry,

I think it is great that you want to move up to a server/client system. However, there are a lot of things to think about, especially if you have never set up a domain. First, you state "probably Active Domain" MS Server OS are are going to install AD. It is AC that makes a server/client different from P2P. It is what allows you to do single sign-on and Group Policy. Without active domain, you basically have a P2P with an expensive "server." Granted, it will be a file server and will keep things more centralized but without domain users, your users will not be able to take full advantage of the server.

You mention ssd. I have eight SSDs are eight clients, but I still haven't taken the jump to SSD on a server. I don't think they are time tested yet. Are you going to have RAID. Besides, just backups, you will want redundancy. That will also give you better performance.

Great choice on the OS, but do you feel confident setting up Hyper-V and virtual machines. They aren't that hard but not that easy the first time.

You are looking for 10 steps up from P2P (that isn't a slur to any of my P2P friends). It's just a lot easier to set up a network when one has set up 25 client computers vs. a more complicated server with hardware RAID and a server OS. The difficulty for restoring is the same as clients. If you can get in the OS, you restore from the OS software, if not, you have to have a boot disk. Server 20012 (pretty much any thing since 2003 -- really 2008) have their own backup software.

Saying you are tech savvy but have never ran a modern server before is like you are very good at Internal Medicine, but I have never repaired an ACL before.

Should we all be running virtualized servers now? It depends what you are looking for.

I don't mean to be so negative, but I hear this from my IT department all the time. If you tore your ACL, would you fix it yourself? No, you would pay an orthopedic surgeon. Would cost a lot more, but in the long run... And, in the end it would be cheaper.

My STRONG recommendation based on your questions is to hire someone from a Microsoft Certified store, tell them what you want, and let them do it.

Good luck.

Thanks for the professional rec. May go that route but will try at my home lab first. I've an EE background, have run old unix sun servers before and know a fair amount about networking.

Specifically is this architecture ok? Server running hyper-v then 2012 essentials with AD and AC virtualized.

Does one need absolutely need 2 VMs to separate AD and AC roles? I'm thinking of running 1 VM to keep it simple.

Point of hyper-v and VM is not to be reliant on 1 server hardware failure point. Good idea?

Replicate to backup box or strong workstation and could migrate over anytime right?

I know that doesn't replace backups - will do that too, on and off site.

I known SSD are not proven, but performance wise it's go to be worth it - check out the Intel S3500 enterprise/server grade lite version of S3700 - seems just right for small biz.

larry

http://blogs.technet.com/b/chrisavi...ng-greater-security-and-more-uptime.aspx

So, if IT pros don't know... Checked out your S3500, I would agree.

If you do use VM, you would only need one.

But, I should tell you that I can't even come close to helping compared with Sandeep. He would be all over this. Just click on his name in the Top Posters on the right and email him. He's been off the board for a while. Someone needs to wake him up, lol.

Lol I've been in the shadows. I'll post back soon.

Well, I've done my job. Hopefully you can do yours. Where the hell you been? You're a mod for chris' sake. On this one even, lol.

I've been around. There was a bit of a dry spell and people were also emailing directly so I just answered there instead.

So my first recommendation would be to do this in stages. Learn how Server 2012 Essentials works before jumping into Hyper V. Hyper V is a good choice for a HyperVisor since there are several free and affordable backup solutions. Windows Server Backup is great and BackupAssist is an excellent commercial product. Lots of people jump on ESXi or Citrix without thinking about how to back it up. Replication is also a premium feature in most cases.


There's no need to separate the roles. There's a few of us who run SBS 2011 Standard (Exchange, SharePoint, AC, AD, DNS, DHCP, etc.) all on the same server. The important thing is to make sure the server has sufficient resources (RAM, CPU, HDDs, etc.). However, I am currently keeping AC off Server 2012 Essentials as Version 6.3.3 (SQL 2005) is officially not compatible with Server 2012.

What you can do is get Server 2012 Standard and use your downgrade rights to get Server 2012 Essentials and Server 2008R2 Enterprise in two instances. This would also give you access to the full GUI of Server 2012 on your Hyper V host.

Server 2012 Standard HV Host
-> Server 2012 Essentials (AD, DNS, File Server, Backup, etc.)
-> Server 2008R2 (AC and SQL 2005)

The alternative would be using free Hyper V Server. Hyper V Server has only Command Line, no GUI. So it's recommended for advanced users. Even though the majority of the setup can be completed from Hyper V Manager in Windows 8.

Hyper V Server 2012
-> Server 2012 Essentials (AD, DNS, File Server, Backup, etc.)
-> Windows 7 Professional (AC and SQL 2005)

I would recommend the first layout as it's easier to manage and only slightly more expensive than the second layout. Probably 100 dollars between Standard and (Essentials + Win 7 Combo). But it would be a lot easier to setup the first.

Also, with respect to SSDs, you'd be safe going with the Intel 530 or Samsung 840 Pro. They've been proven quite reliable. Just make sure to setup RAID 1 for servers. A double RAID 1 layout would be quite effective.

Being on the Tech side of all of this I decided to run all servers I support on XEN server. Its a great hyper-visor. I have just loaded one with samsung SSD drives in believe it or not a raid 5 config with a hot spare on an HP ML series server. Seems to run great. At this point the users say that it run's great, compaired to there old XP as a server config. I think that the ssd drives out run the raid controller, and have really not received much help from HP or Dell on how to configure ssd drives on a raid controller. If you need tons of space then I would use regular SAS or SATA drives as SSD's in the larger sizes are still pretty pricy.
You don't have to setup your server in active directory mode if you dont want to. You can just use it like a big file share.
Visualizing is the way to go, as you can build other virtual machines on the same box to do other tasks, like a VM for AC client to access via Remote desktop via remote connection. I have one server currently that has 10 VM's . It's been running for almost 3 years with no issues. Backup is your only issue with visualizing. I use storage craft and have also used Backup exec system recovery. Both are good products

Hi Denvertech,

Great post. Thanks for all the info. If you are ever in Maine, look me up.

Can you list what you would be missing by not using Active Directory?

Thanks for all the interesting replies. I'm all about simple, yet robust. I only want to do this once and then just upgrade AC as needed.

2012 essential R2 is coming - supposed to allow gui hyper-v and 1 instance of essentials (no other VMs) on top. That might do it for me. I guess once it's up and running one could turn off the essentials part of hyper-v or move it over to plain hyper-v in the future right? i'm not opposed to setting up free hyper-v via a neighboring windows 8 computer (Can't be that hard???)

If i'm going to go with a server, I'm going to use AC 6.5 or 6.6 and hopefully not upgrade from 2012 essentials r2 for quite a while. So 6.5 is sql 20xx and should run on 2012 or 2012 r2 right? I asked AC support they said sure should run fine r2 is just cloud optimized they said...

So to me option 1 is

--bare metal install 2012 essentials r2 running A 6.5, AD, DNS, backup, etc
then play with hyper -v and virtualize the setup later

option 2 is

--hyper-v either free with setup via win 8 neighbor comp or hyper-v 2012 essential with gui
VM 2012 essentials r2 running AC 6.5, AD, DNS, backup, etc.


hardware wise i'm thinking skip raid 1, use a "enterprise grade" ssd intel s3500 and apply every 15 min incremental replication to a backup box running hyper-v. i known it's not the same as raid 1 redundancy, but truthfully my entry level server is more likely to have a power supply crap out on me than the ssd i think. i can live with firing up a 15 min old replica of my server on a backup box, then non-urgently fix whatever part i need to on the main server, ssd or powersupply or entire replacement if need be. thoughts to this strategy?

as it stands not with p2p if my "main computer" goes down i just load up the backup on my workstation and i good to go. (with the exception of lab interface programs). i don't want to switch to a server and be worse off in case of 1 point computer failure. hence the attraction of virtualization, replication and backup box. thoughts? any other simple way to accomplish this moving to a server?

thanks for all replies,

larry
solo im
cincinnati

followup question:
what happens when running AD and the server fails? can the rest of my computers logon and do anything? how hard is it to downgrade to p2p and run off an AC backup on my workstation as a main computer again on the fly?

or is easily restorable backup server the way to go?

separately, it seems replication of essentials 2012 r2 to a backup hyper-v box will be free, true? if so, is this not what everyone should be doing? you'd have a restorable picture of your vm server 15, 30, 1hr and 1 day ago all ready to fire up at a moments notice, all aside from off-site backup copies.

thanks for all replies

larry

What software are you going to use for this replication and exactly what type of backup will it do. Any type of backup will hurt performance. You certainly don't need 15 minute intervals. One or two hours is plenty.

Is this software going to be compatible with a client machine, and the way it is set up.

Not to be cynical, but I have to be: Hmmm RAID1 or PSU. No, I think you hard drive is always the biggest point of failure. I think anyone here will tell you they would rather have a PSU fail than a hard drive. Not to mention the increase in performance.

You can't really be both.

I think you are going about this completely the wrong way. While Denver Tech and Sandeep can put these together in their sleep, I don't think it is a good idea to set this up on a message board. I have a friend who has worked for Microsoft for over 35 years. He knows everything about networking. Everything. He has helped me tremendously over the years. But, when I email him, he will always tell me I am not going to walk you through it. If that's what you want, you need to take a course or hire someone. If you want help with just one step, then I am happy to help.

You may not like the tough love now, but I guarantee you you'll thank me in the end. See 20 patients and make $1400 and pay that to someone certified in this stuff who will warranty his work for three months and make sure it works right the first time. You said it yourself, "I want it to work the first time." If you do it yourself, it won't.

appreciate the skepticism. i need to get the architecture and concept correct for the furutre, and i think there's better than "microsoft certified" it people here that know the needs of small physican office.

i'll give the setup a go in my home lab. am pretty resourceful i don't need handholding, if it's that bad i'll bail and call in the pros (and gladly pay them). if i'm sucessful i'll gladly share my hopefully simple, cheap, yet robust setup with others.

replication is new tech being baked into even 2012 essentials. its free as is hyper-v. run hyper-v on a basic server, connect a replication from your existing vm (microsfot built in products as of r2!) - it does incremental replication so small amounts of data, set on schedule of your choosing q 15 -20 q 30 q 4h whatever. then you have a "replica" vm with restore points that can be brought up on your backup server in about 10 minutes with a few commands. i'm sure someone that knows more can explain better. one can obviously see the benefit- who cares if its your hdd or power supply fails on the main server - fire up the recent replica on the backup server and fix it at your leisure. the prerequisite for replication is a virutalized server. hence my queries on architecture.

so my proposed setup is:

server 1 main - assume adequate hardware - running essential 2012 r2 on bare metal(can't do replication would add later after virtualization)

or server 1 main - running hyper-v or essential 2012 r2 hyper-v with essentials 2012 r2 as vm

and box 2 - server 2 same or cheaper entry level server box (or i7 workstation) running hyper-v (free) connected as replication target to box 1 (free part of microsoft server/hyper-v). only fire the replica vm in case of box 1 crash/failure. shouldn't require any license of other software. only running 1 instance of essentials, either primary on box 1 or replica vm fired on box 2 after box 1 failure.

max downtime assuming box 1 and 2 dont fail concurrently ~ 15 minutes.

that would be my definition of simple robust and (pretty cheap)

what does everyone think? workable?

larry

You didn't say of your VM or I didn't catch that. And, Larry, there is no way that even Sandeep is going to know more than someone that does this for a living and is MCITP. If they can do a job with 500 clients, my guess is they can handle a small office.

I apologize for my statements. I guess I am just trying to help. It is clear to me that you may need hand holding when the questions you ask are clearly that. I have no doubt you can do this but...I just think you would be much better off hiring someone that can.

But, before we get into a flame war, I will gladly step out of this thread and allow Sandeep and others build your server. And, yes, I am skeptical. That's why I am giving you the advice I have.

And, before you completely take me to task, remember it was I that even told you about Sandeep in the first place.

I would do the opposite for sure. I would even use two consumer grade drives in RAID 1 instead of the S3500 alone. Server Power Supplies tend to be very reliable. There's also redundant power supplies but those are quite expensive. $400-500 for Redundant PSUs. They are also very loud. I only use them when I'm running two or more VMs on a server. At that point, it becomes necessary.

If you are going to virtualize, it's better to do it from the start. P2V migrations of domain controllers don't always work well. The best thing about Hyper V's backup is that it is VSS aware making restores much easier compared to third party solutions. I mean there are good third party ones like BackupExec, but those can be quite pricey.

In terms of live failover, replication is the best option. Restoring your backup from last night would be at least a day behind. For most people, that's fine, but if you want swift restoration with virtually no downtime, that's the way to go.

One good server and one equivalent desktop is a good combo for replication. Hyper V has the replication built into it so there's no need for 3rd party software. Use a gigabit link between the servers on separate NICs. 10 Gigabit is popping up on server boards too nowadays.

As I have previously posted, I did a similar setup and it works well. I have not done a live failover, but have tested the replica.

I started with two IBM x3200 servers, call them A and B. They have redundant power supplies, 32GB RAM, both running Win2K12 Standard. I installed SBS2008 long ago for AD, SharePoint, and Exchange, so the first thing I did was to virtualize that machine on server B using HyperV. I decided to go with 840 Pros in RAID1 1 on server A, then made a virtual Server 2008 machine on server A and moved AC onto it. This is in response to my one and only AC support call, when they commented that they did not like to see AC running on the domain controller. At this point, the configuration was no better than before, but AC is isolated and both AC and SBS are virtualized. The 840 Pros made booting the AC machine lightning fast, as was response time to queries. So far seems reliable enough.

After everything was running correctly for a while, I made a replica of the AC machine and put it on server B. I set replication to hourly. So far it's been running in the background with no hitches. If Server A crashes, I will simply point the AC clients to the replica on Server B.

To answer the question of the domain controller going down, I made a secondary controller on another virtual machine on a stand-alone computer, not server grade.

Hey Jack,

Nice setup. Couple of questions.

1. Did they say why they didn't like AC on the same server as the domain controller? Just wondering.

2. Are you using only replication or backups as well?

Thanks.

Jack,

You setup is basically what I'm talking about.

Glad it's worked so far for you. We're on the same page - simple, pretty cheap, and reliable.

How much traffic/overhead is used with replication? Did you just put the replication connection on your main LAN or use dedicated NICS? I'm thinking of just putting both "servers" on a switch that then connect to main router.

Have you looking into server 2012 r2? supposed to have more control over replication.

How are you doing backups in addition to replication?

larry

Hi larry,

Does look like Jack's setup is like yours. Not judging anything just wondering if for the sake of everyone's learning can you put down the approximate price of the total setup.

Thanks.

Bert

Primary box:
Lenovo TS130 Xeon E3-1245V2 3.4GHz 4C/8T110571U - $600
+ memory total 16gb ecc ram - $150
+ s3500 intel ssd enterprise lite 300gb - $400
(or 2 x 840pro 256gb raid 1)

hyper-v 2012 r2 - free
2012 essentials r2 - - $400

Secondary box:
Lenovo TS130 Xeon E3-1225V2 3.2GHz 4C/4T 110568U - $380
+ memory 16gb ecc ram total - $150
+ 840 pro 256gb - $225
running hyper-v free, no license needed as replica target from VM on primary box.

Total: $2300

I'd like to run AC and AD together on 1 server VM if it's kosher. Could run 2 VMs under 2012 Server Standard, but adds complexity/cost/hassle. Or could run AC in a windows 7/8 VM on the server.

Separate query: how much performance would one lose running AD on a 2012 Essentials VM and AC on a windows 7/8 VM? It's SQL express anyway so cpu core/memory limitations are roughly the same running AC on a server os or desktop os?

Also running AC and AD on 1 replicated VM, then the secondary box replica target serves as AC and AD failover, nice and tidy. (again, not real time, but ala Jack should be doable with a few commands and cursing over a few minutes.)

I figure entry level servers are powerful and cheap enough that i'll take 2 of them in a replica/failover setup over 1 expensive super-deluxe server. Kind of like sandeep's suggestion of 2 840pro ssd in raid 1 over a more expensive intel s3500.

I know my choice of servers are cheap entry level stuff, and I'm sure that the primary box could be upgraded. I haven't bought the secondary box yet, so we'll see. Beauty of VM server (with a backup server box) is hardware can be fixed/upgraded/swapped out whenever, right?

larry

Replication with hyper-v for small business articles:

http://blog.powerbiz.net.au/hyperv/how-to-set-up-hyper-v-replica-for-small-businesses/

http://blog.powerbiz.net.au/hyperv/windows-server-2012-hyperv-replica-scenarios-for-small-business/

http://blog.powerbiz.net.au/hyperv/...-replica-for-small-business-on-a-budget/

http://blog.powerbiz.net.au/hyperv/monitoring-and-managing-hyper-v-replica/

most of the difficultly mentioned above is for spanning replication across a wan, should be easier if it's all in the same office/lan.

caveat: i've done none of this before, that's why i'm asking if this architecture looks suitable. apparently some of the ideas/tech is a bit newer, but that's cool for everyone to learn especially if this allows small guys like us to function better.

i'm a bit afraid of bigger business it guys (microsoft certified) who might throw more expensive servers or more server instances at the problem. good for their job security, but not what my interest is.

this project would be done in steps. but as sandeep suggested if we're gonna go virutalized, do it from the start.

Larry,

Thanks for the additional information.

@Bert

1) no idea why AC said that. It was not a resource issue (had plenty), just a general statement that AC does not live well on AD controllers

2) I am using Altaro Hyper-V backup for the VMs scheduled daily. I also backup the individual files occasionally everywhere (portable drives, cloud, etc)

@Larry

1) I cannot perceive any slow-down when I know it's replicating. For our volume, it really should not be much changed data per hour. We have a load of 6-7 active connections while it replicates but not everyone is furiously typing away.

2) All machines are on one LAN off a 48 port switch. My next project is to move replication to some electrically stable environment off site. Auto-failover should be easy, but I am not going to implement it. I want control.

@ Larry

3) I generally stop tinkering when it works. Since I don't know what control in replication I am missing in Win2K12R2, I am happy

Hi All,
New user. I've have my main computer running AC from my 'sky drive' folder so it does continuous backup. What would I need to do to access that drive when off-site?
Thanks,
Andy
FP-MI

I thought SQL database files (mdf,ldf) would not copy correctly when SQL is running, so cloud synchronization would not really give a true copy of the database until SQL is stopped? The gurus would know.

In any case, I would presume that any server situated elsewhere with a setup the same as your main server (using sky drive folder as AC folder) can be used when your main computer is not running, and serve up AC synced from the cloud. However, it would run into the same issues of syncing while SQL is running, and somehow you will have to re-sync from the cloud when your main server starts back up. If the purpose is to be read-only, then maybe it would be better to copy the files from sky drive to the second server, then you don't have to resync.

Jack,

You are bang-on. The only way you cna copy those files is if you stopped the SQL service (kind of defeats the purpose).

So, use he AC backup tools to get DB backups, but you can sync file based storage (Imported, illustraions, etc).

To have a proper remote backup you will need both methods in-place, and know that you will have to do a restore of the database on the backup server to complete the process.