Home Forums AC on it's own server?

Answering some of the questions.

I did not "randomly change to a server OS?" - I have 2 offices with 8 computers in one location and 5 in another and all those 5 computers in second location need to remote into the computers at the main office. For example Reception to Reception, Exam Room 1 to Exam Room 1 and so on. Setting up SBS2011 server at the main office allowed me to set up Remote Workspace to that with one click on one RDP icon on each desktop in second office we are logged into the computers in the main office where AC on each desktop is connected to the AC data on SBS 2011 server standard. That is very fast - way faster than LogMeIn. That is the main reason I swithced to SBS2011 server. I could have gone with SBS2011 Essential but Dell T410 came with SBS2011 Standard - it was't much more expensive than SBS2011 Essential.

Yes, Exchange & Sharepoint are included in SBS 2011 Standard but so far I have not found the need to use them.

Let me give you one example of SBS2011 making things complex: All of a sudden after one software update of SBS2011, AC on clients could not connect to AC data on server. Then I called AC support and they informed me that SBS2011 updated the security software which changed all the permissions and so clients were not allowed to access the AC data on server. AC support had to manually change the permissions to get it working.

Computers and servers and network are just tools to get my job done as a physician and I could't be spending my time on tools. I want to set it up and then forget about it so I can spend all my cognitive energies on medical decision making. But the added layer of complexity with SBS2011 forces me to spend more time on tools and distracts from medical thinking.

Coming back to the original point I was making, that unless you have a second location where you need to remote into multiple desktops in main office where AC data resides, you do no need a server SBS2011 or 2008. Peer to peer network is simpler and less complicated. If you need to remote into one or two computers, you can use Windows RDP (on port 3389, 3390 etc) or JumpDesktop. Both of them are way faster than LogMeIn.

I found hardly any speed advantage going from AC data on Windows 7 i5 with 4GB to Dell T410 server with 24 GB RAM and Intel 3570 Xeon processor.

All said, Sandeep's videos are excellent resource for setting up SBS2011 and if you are going to install SBS2011 then make sure to watch them. They were very useful and Sandeep helped me in setting up the secure certificates on server from GoDaddy. These user discussion forums are immensely useful for AC, thanks to all the people like you who spend their time in helping everyone.

Answering some of the questions "I have no idea why SanjeevP would randomly change to a server OS?".

I did not randomly switch to SBS2011. I have a main office with 8 computers and an office in second location with 5 computers. AC data is in main office and we remote from satellite office to main office to work in AC. So Reception desk in second office accesses Reception in main office, Exam Room 1 remotes into Exam Room 1 computer and so on so forth. SBS2011 remote workspace allows us remote into multiple computers in main office and work on AC. WIndows 2011 RWW is way faster than LogMeIn or even just RDP.

I had no need for Exchange or Sharepoint and could have gone with SBS2011 Essential but Standard was not a whole lot more expensive on Dell T410 server. And I still do not use Microsoft Exchange and Sharepoint.

To give you one example of added complexity with SBS2011: all of a sudden one day AC on clients could not access the AC data on server and stopped working. AC support found out that WIndows SBS2011 server software security update had changed the permissions and they had to manually change the permissions back on the server to get AC working on client computers. But imagine the interruption - waiting room full of patients and you are on phone with AC tying to get it working!

Computers, and server and network are just tools to allow me to do my job as a physician. I would like to set these tools up,then forget about them and just go about doing medical decision making. But having a Server forces me to spend more time on computers and distracts me from clinical work and decision making.

So coming back to the original point I was making: unless you need an advantage from server - like accessing multiple computers from a second location - stay with Peer to Peer network, irrespective of what Bert's IT guy says. You are not managing 50 or 100 desktops - where I can see the advantage of centralized management.

Going from Dell Inspiron 530 with i5 and 4GB RAM to DellT410 server with 24 GB RAM and Xeon 3570 processor, I got little, if at all speed advantage.

All said, these forums are immensely helpful in making AC easier to use, thanks to all the people who donate their valuable time. If you are going to install SBS2011, make sure to watch Sandeep's videos, they are very useful. Sandeep also helped me in installing secure certificate from GoDaddy. Reading these discussions informed me that remoting from multiple computers will be far easier with SBS2011 and that is the only reason for me to install SBS2011.

I am sorry, but that is just not the truth. May be for you, but it isn't for most people who know how to use a server. JBS always talks about running people off, well now you are. It isn't hard to change permissions and updates on any computer can reap havoc.

Have you tried SharePoint? Have you even tried Exchange. I agree Exchange is likely not necessary, but SharePoint is simple and easy to use and certainly helpful to a lot of people. I have never heard one person say they used it and didn't like it. Remote Workspace (RWA) is incredible but not faster than RDC.

"stay with Peer to Peer network, irrespective of what Bert's IT guy says"

Don't quote me if you are going to quote me incorrectly. You don't need 50 computers to use a server. One is enough.

By this time, your post is a hijack. We are helping Tom who wants to move forward. I don't even know who you are quoting, but it would be helpful to know.

Again, to say you shouldn't use a server because the permissions may go down due to updates is ludicrous. Like P2P computers go down.

I don't know why everyone keeps thinking you will get more speed from a server. 24GB, 48GBs, who cares? If you had SQL Server that could use that RAM, sure.

I am sure this will start quite the flame war, but I don't appreciate waking up to being called out from posts days ago. Please put it in perspective next time. And, yes, Jon, I was right, lol.

I am sorry if I offended you. I think you got a bit defensive. I was simply commenting on your posts. Feel free to comment on mine.

For example, if I say Exchange is great. Call me to task. Won't bother me at all.

I don't know how many times we mentioned this. If you are looking for a speed boost, RAM isn't the answer. Most computers come with 4-8GB today and that is more than enough. While SBS 2011 will actually use all of that. There will be little if any difference between 16GB and 24GB of RAM.

The i5-2500k is faster or at least equal to the Xeon 3570 (which I'm guessing you paid close to a $1000 for). I'm not surprised that you didn't see a performance boost. How much did the server cost? The Xeon E3-1230/i7-2600 is a fourth of the cost and will run circles around that.

If you really want a speed boost, you should get SSDs and/or many drives in a RAID Array.

That is one of the many advantages of SBS 2011. Active Directory and group policy has to be the biggest feature of a server OS. I can install a printer on all of my computers at once or a piece of software (like AC or Microsoft Word) to 10 computers easily. Hell, I can even install a custom version of Windows 7 preloaded with everything I need on all of my computers in minutes.

You have 8 computers. I'd imagine installing all the applications, drivers, AC, etc. that you need took a long time. This is where a server comes in handy.

Security is another big one. Throwing everyone in the security permissions for P2P is a very dangerous thing to do. Anyone who's on your network can delete your AC folder or take a copy home. Active Directory requires you to authenticate against the server and you can control permissions more easily.

This is a very brief mention of just Active Directory, there are numerous others like RWW or HTTPS authentication, on-site email, etc.

To be able to fiddle with permissions,group policies, security and all that is really for techies, not for a doctor with a busy practice.

May be you can post a video on Sharepoint to show how it can help in a doctor's office.

Should at least do security. Not that difficult. If I want person A to access the folder, add person A to the list.



Bert did this earlier in a detailed post with many screen shots.
http://amazingcharts.com/ub/ubbthreads.php/topics/41769/Re_Sushi_SharePoint_and_Snail_#Post41769

Sanjeev,

Point well taken. That is why I was a little surprised when you switched only for remote access. I apologize for anything that offended you.

If I could only ask that you post back (taking me to the wood shed sooner) so I could reference your post and try to clear things up.

Friends?

BTW, are you still using 2011? And, I think going with Standard was a wise choice. Keep in mind that Standard is significantly harder than Essentials not that you can't handle it.

Think of it like Wordpad and Word. Sure, you can write a paragraph or letter on Wordpad, but Wordpad can't hold a candle to Word. Most people including me use about 5% or less of Word's capabilities.

One does not have to use group policies just because it is there. You do have to use permissions to run any network. SBS allows wizard-like permissions setup. It doesn't take techies to run a server/client once it is set up. And, you can then leave it alone or use more and more things. DNS is one thing that a server OS has that can not be beaten when it comes to networking.

I doubt there is anyone on here that knows as much or more than my IT guy. This isn't the 16 year old down the street that helps with your computers after he is done with his X-Box and Ninetendo.

Qualifications:

Microsoft MVP 2006 Networking / 2007 Networking / 2008 Setup & Deployment / 2009 Management Infrastructure / 2010 SBS / 2011-2012 SBS

About the MVP Award Program

Since the early 1990s, Microsoft has recognized the inspiring activities of MVPs around the world with the MVP Award. MVPs freely share their deep knowledge, real-world experience, and impartial, objective feedback to help people enhance the way they use technology. Of more than 100 million users who participate in technology communities, around 4,000 are recognized as Microsoft MVPs.

MVPs make exceptional contributions to technical communities, sharing their passion, knowledge, and know-how. Meanwhile, because MVPs hear the opinions and needs of many others in the technical community, they are well-placed to share highly focused feedback with Microsoft.

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Awarded in over ninety technology areas, MVPs reflect Microsoft's global customer base and the breadth of Microsoft's technologies. A significant proportion of new MVPs represent emerging markets in China, Russia, and Korea, as well as smaller markets including Ghana, Nepal, and Kazakhstan.

MVP Fast Facts

Live in more than 90 countries
Speak nearly 40 languages
Answer more than 10 million questions each year
Offer expertise in around 90 Microsoft technologies

Experts-Exchange Stats:

Genius1,000,000

Windows 2003 Server
SBS Small Business Server
Virtual Private Networking (VPN)
Miscellaneous Networking
Windows Networking

Sage500,000

Windows XP Operating System
Network Routers
Remote Desktop/Terminal Services
Exchange Email Server
Windows Server 2008

Wizard300,000

Domain Name Service (DNS)
Networking Hardware Firewalls

Guru150,000

IPSec Security Protocol
Microsoft Operating Systems
Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP)
Windows Vista
Active Directory
Network Management
Networking Hardware
TCP/IP
Microsoft Server

Master50,000

Computer Servers
File Transfer Protocol (FTP)
Network Operations
Outlook Groupware Software
MS Forefront-ISA
Networking Protocols
Windows 2000 Server
Windows NT Networking
Internet Protocols
Network Software Firewalls
Microsoft Windows Operating Systems
Backup & Restore Software
Windows Network Security
Remote Access Software
Windows 2011 Server
Wireless Local Area Network
Network Switches & Hubs
Network Cards & Adapters
Wireless Network Cards & Adapters
Operating System Specific Networking
Network Design & Methodology
Windows 7
Windows 2000 Operating System
Miscellaneous Software
Microsoft IIS Web Server
Server Applications
Watchguard Firewall
MS SharePoint
Operating Systems Miscellaneous
Miscellaneous Security
DSL Lines / Cable Internet
Consumer Firewalls
Networking Cables

Rob's blog

http://msmvps.com/blogs/robwill/archive/tags/SBS/default.aspx

Company blog: Just a "few" more articles.

http://blog.lan-tech.ca/index/

So, it's really hard to say irrespective of Bert's IT. This guy's good and when he says P2P is harder to work with than domains, I would believe him. He isn't necessarily saying P2P is harder, just harder to work with.

"Rhetorical" question: Any idea how much it would cost for a good IT expert to convert a peer-to-peer network connected to a server into a true domain set up? (server 2008, 20 workstations).

It's not a good idea to go with Server 2008R2 when it's the same price as SBS. Except with SBS you get a lot more for your money, Exchange, SharePoint, WSUS, and all of that pre-installed. An IT guy that could actually set these up properly would charge you a small fortune. Hence, I'll recommend SBS. Depends if you want SBS Essentials or Standard.

20 Workstations is a lot and if you think you will expand over 25 users/computers, you will need Standard.

Active Directory:
SBS Essentials $400+Server Cost (1k-5k, depending on where you buy it)+25 Users (max) Free

Active Directory, Exchange (email), SharePoint (collaboration portal), Full On-Site Solution:
SBS Standard $700+Server Cost (1k-5k, depending on where you buy it) + CALs (5 Users/Computers Free + $50/Additional User/Computer) + Win 7 Pro (100/computer, IF you have any computers that are not pro or above) + Domain Name ($2-$15/year depending on domain suffix .org or .com)+$50 (SSL Certificate for Encryption)

Labor: $70-200/hour (depends on the guy and how well he knows his stuff, some like to charge a lot). A guy that knows his hardware will save you quite a bit and get you really fast stuff. A guy who doesn't will spend a lot on the hardware. Bear in mind, it's pretty hard to find one who's good at both.

Imo, SBS Essentials setup should not be more than $100/hour. It's just way too easy.

SBS Essentials is geared towards people with Win 7 "servers". It's relatively simple to set up. Standard is for people who are looking for a fully integrated solution.

Also, you may want to seriously consider standard (75 User Limit). You're literally at the limit for Windows 7. Win 7 allows 20 simultaneous connections. Upgrading to Essentials will give you slightly more wiggle room. Standard will give you a lot.

I think you slightly misunderstood my question. I HAVE Windows server 2008 standard on an HP server, but am using it as the main computer "peer-to-peer" with about 20 other computers. How many hours do think it would take for a good IT professional to set it up as a domain so I can play with the benefits that so many above have mentioned? Also, is there any downside other than the initial cost of setup?

The only cost of setup would the CALs (and/or upgrading computers to the Pro Editions). It takes about 10 minutes to setup active directory and DNS. Maybe another 10 to add your users. That's it. Joining the computers to the domain is something you can do on your own. (Just have to type the name and restart)

Yes, Sandeep is correct. All you basically need is Active Directory. Making a domain is simply taking a computer which is connected as a workgroup, opening a brower, typing in http://connect, and following the prompts. The server will set up a user, email account if you have exchange, a users folder, etc. Once you reboot, you will be on a domain.

It's a good idea to use a different computer name, so Reception becomes Reception01. While you may have already been using DHCP on the server, make sure you do now.

Unfortunately he doesn't have SBS, he will have to join the computers to the domain manually (http://connect won't work). No Exchange either so no email.

mkweiss,

First, it isn't rhetorical if you are looking for an answer, lol. Unless you mean you aren't committed to doing it.

I can tell you that good IT consultants charge between $75.00 and $110.00 per hour, which if you wanted to change, would be worth paying. They also could do it relatively quickly.

We now have our peer to peer i7 set up and our network overhauled. Life is much better. Thanks so much for everyone who has been supportive along the way.

That's terrific, Vicky!
Out of curiosity, what version of AC are you running?

Funny, I was thinking the same thing. I'm guessing 6.09.

Sandeep & Bert

Progress report -- if you are interested. Please don't feel obliged to answer; I can probably work this out by myself, but it is very helpful to have your input if you are willing.

Changing to SBS Essentials is not too hard, I think, but I am going very slowly, so as not to upset what already works very well. It is not, however, a piece of cake.

At Sandeep's recommendation I got a SuperMicro server board and E3-1230 Xeon Ivy Bridge processor. Also Crucial 256G SSD for main drive and conventional 1TB drive for backup. Decided I could add a second Crucial drive and a RAID card later if this whole thing works, but wanted to minimize complexity at first.

Glitch #1 -- put it all together, powered up, and got 4 short beeps. Nothing else. SuperMicro has nothing anywhere about 4 short beeps in their error code list, but dredging the Internet, I discover it is an undocumented beep-code that means "unrecognized processor".
Turns out, the motherboard comes in two versions, just like the E3-1230 CPU, and you have to upgrade the BIOS to make v1 work with v2 Ivy Bridge processor. It's just that you can't tell by looking at the box or the motherboard which version you have (Newegg doesn't know), and you can't upgrade v1 board unless you have the "recognized" Sandy Bridge version of the CPU! SHAME SuperMicro. I bought a Sandy Bridge processor, and hope that NewEgg will take the Ivy Bridge back on RMA. Server works fine, and I'm sticking with Sandy Bridge, v1!

Glitch#2 -- Called Medware (Sage, nowdays) to get some help putting our venerable Medware program on the server. They said it COULDN'T BE DONE, don't even try, and they won't help --so then I am left racking my brains -- how am I going to run a Workgroup for Medware and a Domain for the AC Server in our little office? Can't have two computers at everyone's desk! That won't work.

Turns out, Medware will run just fine, so far as I can tell in my testing so far, on the domain, on SBS Essentials -- as long as all the clients that use it are signed in as Administrators. A little security problem, but tolerable in a small office. But sort of makes the Domain into a peer-to-peer network, so not sure what we have gained. Maybe someday the practice management part of AC will actually be useful (my hope is to eventually have it all together anyway) -- running two programs is a little clumsy, but the staff has adapted.

Now -
Problems to work out before I really deploy this so-far test bed:

1. Backup. Can AC be made to put the automatic backup somewhere other than in the AmazingCharts folder on the main drive? That fills up really fast, especially since SBS only gives me a 60GB partition to put all the programs in. I have to go in and manually delete the old backups, or it won't even work to back up to other, larger drives.

2. I don't understand how SBS partitions the main drive. What is Drive D for? Programs all install on C, and D seems to be reserved for things that SBS does for itself.

3. I thought I could use the 1TB drive as a backup for Medware and AC -- but if I assign it to SBS backup, the operating system just takes the whole drive and makes it disappear. What? I partitioned the drive, hoping half could be SBS and half AC and Medware -- but no go. SBS wants the whole thing.

4. Haven't got remote access working at all yet. Even with manually forwarding the port, the SBS remote access wizard won't work. I wonder if that is because I am still using the evaluation version, and I have to actually buy it to get whatever certificate it is that I need. And Remote Desktop behaves strangely -- at least on the local net. If I use RDP to access either the main server or a client running AC, I can not run AC remotely. It automatically comes up on my local machine! Don't know if it works like that from outside over internet. This clearly will take some work.

5. If I finally get this test bed working -- this is all being done in parallel with our working office system; the domain doesn't seem to conflict with the workgroup even using the same router -- can I just use the key code on my purchased SBS software, or am I going to have to re-install everything from scratch with the paid-for version?

This is all very interesting, and I suppose a useful exercise. It is an intellectual challenge, but it sure sucks up a lot of time! Of course, I can hire my IT guy to do it all, but that isn't the point.

Cheers

Glitch #1 - You think they would ship it out with the new BIOS. Smart move, I would've probably emailed Supermicro and they would've probably update it.

Glitch #2 - Are you sure administrator access is necessary? I'm pretty sure they don't need to be domain admins. Local admins should suffice. Bert has his staff as local admins.
Local Admin=Admin on that computer only.
Domain Admin=Admin across the network. Highest privileges.

PM me so we can find out if it's necessary.

SBS does hijack the drive. You can partition it after the fact though. I got about 200GB partition from a 2TB Backup Drive and 1TB on my SBS. I like to keep my backups on a separate power supply like those provided with external hard drives. You could get a 2TB External and leave the 1TB as internal storage. Or you can get an external enclosure for the 1TB drive.

Problems:
1. That's why in the SBS Essentials tutorial, I installed AC on a separate partition. Avoid installing programs on the main partition. As you mentioned it's only 60GB.

2. D is for documents and shares. Every users docs on the network are backed up daily to the server.
C - Operating System (SBS 2011)
D - Documents and Shares

My Preference: (Please watch the tutorial)
C - OS
D - Docs and Shares (Separate larger drive)
E - Amazing Charts

3. SBS does hijack the drive. You can partition it after the fact though. I got about 200GB partition from a 2TB Backup Drive and 1TB on my SBS. I like to keep my backups on a separate power supply like those provided with external hard drives. You could get a 2TB External and leave the 1TB as internal storage. Or you can get an external enclosure for the 1TB drive.

4. If you can't run the wizard, then you can't set it up. It does not need to be activated to run the wizard. PM me and we'll go through the steps.

5. You just have to enter the license key and it'll be activated. No reinstall necessary.

Sandeep & Bert

CAVEAT: I AM NOT NEARLY AS GOOD WITH HARDWARE AND ITS SANDEEP'S SETUP ANYWAY. NEVER USED SBS 2011, BUT I CAN ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS:

Progress report -- if you are interested. Please don't feel obliged to answer; I can probably work this out by myself, but it is very helpful to have your input if you are willing.

It's not a piece of cake, because you have never set up a server. Also, you are using SSDs. Again, never used 2011 and/or SSDs on a server.

I could be wrong, but I believe you would have difficulty adding the RAID card later. I would set up your RAID in the beginning. I wouldn't run a server without RAID for redundancy.

NewEgg will take it back. But, there has to be a way to know the version. I don't build any PCs, generally, without running it by Gary. I may have run it by Sandeep. Not giving you are hard time.

Medware/Sage/Vitera will run on ANYTHING. It will run on your kitchen table. It is one of the few programs left that doesn't need to install to the registry. Imagine grabbing Word's folder and moving it to another computer. You can put Medware on a flash drive. You could put it on a client and run it from there. They are probably talking about 32-bit vs 64-bit, but you can run it using WOW in the x86 folder. Crazy.

I think you are confused. I don't understand what you are saying. First, sure, it is best practice for users to run as local users, but in reality, that can be a pain in the [censored]. I run every computer as a local admin. But, it shouldn't matter. Just put Medware anywhere, map the drive from you living room and you should be good to go. WHETHER USERS ARE ON LOCAL ADMIN OR DOMAIN ADMIN, YOU ARE STILL ON A DOMAIN. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT THE USERS ARE. THE DOMAIN DEPENDS ON USING ACTIVE DIRECTORY AND BEING AUTHENTICATED INTO THE SERVER AND USING DNS AND A MILLION OTHER THINGS SUCH AS ALL CLIENTS JOINING THE DOMAIN.

Now -
Problems to work out before I really deploy this so-far test bed:

No, it can't. You can use a script or a 3rd party program to get rid of them. I still don't understand the 60GB partition. I guess it's due to the lack of Exchange and SharePoint and the SQL server to run them.

The D: drive or partition is for other things. Usually it is for your data such as Medware's databases and AC's databases and any other data you can't afford to lose. It is the key thing to back up. I have C for OS, D for Data, E for installs, F for Other and local backups.

If you are using the server to do an image backup, unlike any other backup program, it will convert the hard drive you choose into a backup drive that you can only use for backups. Not sure why you would want to back up Medware and AC with the server backup. Plus, you would want to grab an external drive. Backups to internal drives are fast and independent of the OS if an entirely different drive, but if anything happens to the server (someone grabs it or it fries), your backups are gone. Even if you could partition the drive that SBS backup uses, do you really need 500GBs to backup AC and Medware? Generally, SBS Backup will default to incremental anyway. You will be able to back up five years worth. Why not have AC data and Medware data on your D: drive? Then back up your ENTIRE server or your ENTIRE D: drive to an external drive. You can still do the backups which are included with Medware and AC to an external drive or your extra drive. I would use the TB drive for storage. If AC folder is on D: drive and Medware databases are on D: drive, when you back it up, you will have backups of the backups. While you can't see it, if you go into computer management and give it a drive letter, you can see it.

I think you are doing too much at once. TS Gateway should be on your server which will allow authorized users to connect to remote computers. TS Gateway uses Remote Desktop Protocol with HTTPS. WIN 7 computers should come with RDC 6.1 and will just need to be configured. Directions can be found here just above Terminal Services RemoteApp.

Why are you needing to manually forward the port? Once 2011 is installed, you need only set up your Remote Desktop Connection to connect remotely on the network or from the Internet IF you have access to each client computer. As the domain admin, you would by default. Can you give more of a description of how you remote into another computer to access AC, and it comes up on your machine. This will sound incredibly stupid, but when you remote to another computer maximized, the desktop will look very much like your own desktop. I could see where it would appear that AC is opening on your computer.

Yes. It shouldn't conflict unless they are all on the same subnet. But, if all clients are on like 192.168.1.x that would be an issue.

This is all very interesting, and I suppose a useful exercise. It is an intellectual challenge, but it sure sucks up a lot of time! Of course, I can hire my IT guy to do it all, but that isn't the point.

Cheers
_________________________
Tom Duncan
Family Practice
Astoria OR

Tom,

Sandeep is going to kill me. But, I just have to opine here as Bill O'Reilly says. I think it's great you are trying to pull this off. Not sure if it is to learn or to use.

Don't take this the wrong way, but as simple as SBS 2011 is, building your own server AND installing SBS and setting up a network is just a LOT to do at one time. Even if you do get it all set up, my guess is you will have issues as it needs to be set up perfectly right out of the box. Again, don't take this personally, but without looking this up, do you know what DNS, WINS, AD, DHCP are. If not, you have a ways to go with networking. Even with Google. I would let your IT guy set it up and watch.

Or and no offense to Sandeep's videos, BUY TRAIN SIGNAL. I will pay 1/2 the cost if you purchase it. Watch it once from home. Then install it while watching Train Signal.

We may also want to move to PM.

Thanks Bert

I do actually know what all those things are.

However, I do have a medical practice, and IT is not my main job.
Plus, I have a wife, and a "life" -- so I know what you are saying.

I'm moving slowly because this is more of an intellectual exercise than a need to do it. I do not want to screw up what is going well already.

And please, stop worrying that you might offend me.
I'm not exactly a newbie, but I'm definitely out of my element.
I'm flattered that you even bother to communicate!

Tom

Sandeep:

Thanks for the advice.

I'm working on all this. Partitioning an E drive on the SSD that is only 256G to start with might not get me much. It may be time to get my IT guy involved.

Bert: Medware has changed in the last year or two --- whenever they got bought out by Sage. It isn't the same program, and it doesn't just run on anything anymore. Plus, the "help" person said it "hasn't been tested on SBS Essentials, and we won't help you with it." If I sign in as a standard user (no Admin privileges) it won't run.

I am still figuring out a lot of this AC program -- but a separate hard drive in the main server box for backup makes sense, because most of the time the only thing that will fry is the main drive. The backup should remain intact, barring fire, theft, malicious intrusion, etc. Of course, I always use some external backup as well. The thing about AC's backup program is that it doesn't overwrite the previous backup -- it just adds it to the previous backups, and at 3GB a pop, it fills up a drive pretty fast. I frequently have to go in and manually delete a lot of old backups.

Bert and Sandeep: Seems to me that SBS Essentials is a completely different program from Small Business Server -- it really seems to run like Win 7. (Without FreeCell)

Tom

I agree internal is rather safe. I have two backups internally myself, but only because Backup Assist puts them there and then moves them externally. I just hope you have at least two external drives. But, I guess you are alright.

Sage has been bought by Vitera. I know quite a bit about Medware, then Sage, etc. Just two weeks ago, I copied the whole folder and put it on a flash drive and ran it. Don't see why you can't put it on any other computer, but (I am stubborn) I don't see why it won't run on 2011. Makes no sense. I am sure you mapped it as you have used it before. Don't know why you have to be an admin, but why not run as an admin. Easier anyway. I have run local machines as admins for 15 years. I really don't want to run around to everyone's computer clicking on Run As, etc.

You don't have to back up your II with AC. Why not back them up with your server backup. The reason I would just put storage on the other drive is I would want the Server Backup to be a full bare metal backup. But, I suppose you could do that with the SSDs and backup AC to the HDD. But, you could still back up II to your external or internal drive and not include in your AC.enc backup. They will only get bigger.

There are tons of 3rd party programs that will delete your AC backups from your AC folder. You can leave one, two, ten whatever. Some are free, some are around $25.00. Then you never have to check.

I suppose you don't need an E drive. What would it be for. You could simply have C: for system drive and D: for data. I put all my programs on C:. I have never seen an advantage for putting programs on a different partition. I like to let my programs install to the default folders especially with 64-bit programs. Plus, no matter how hard I try, I always forget and then I have two programs on C and some on D. But, then you have the size factor. I suppose I won't say anything about SSDs.

Lol both drives would be attached to the same power supply so both would likely fry. Mechanical failure rate should be independent of the enclosure. Power supply failure would knock out both.


That's why I suggested making the 1TB Drive as the document/user storage. SBS Essentials 60-80GB. 180-200GB for AC is quite a bit. Remember your main partition can be a lot smaller since there is no Exchange or SharePoint. It shouldn't really grow much after the initial install.

Has it been tested on Server 2008/2008R2? SBS Essentials is nothing more than Server 2008R2 with wizards and auto configuration. I'd be surprised if it hasn't been tested with 2008R2.


Someone posted here how to make the old backups delete automatically with a single line in the command prompt which you can then save as a batch file and set up in the task scheduler. I personally used VBScript to do it since "forfiles" wasn't around back in the days of XP.
Automatically Delete Old Backups


That's the beauty of it. It was targeted at users who weren't ready for a full-on server, but users with Win 7 servers who wanted a little more.

I find that when an operating system fails perhaps during a power outage or something of that nature. The main partition usually becomes inaccessible/corrupt. While the other partitions are just fine. You're right about there being no performance difference, but I do it because of the aforementioned case.

Also, sometimes, people like to install programs on different drives. I have a 1TB Drive Dedicated to games. When running with an SSD, capacity is limited and it's best to use hard drives for storage. Note: I had all of these pre-flood times lol when storage was cheap. 1TB drives were barely 60 bucks at the time. 2TB were $80. As you can tell, Samsung and WD are my two favorites haha. Probably just WD now since Seagate bought Samsung :'(

My PC Layout:
128GB SSD Main - Win 7 and Commonly Used Programs
2TB Spinpoint F4 - Data Storage
1TB Spinpoint F3 - WorkSpace (My Documents, Music, etc)
1TB Spinpoint F3 - Programs (Steam Games, Virtual Machines)
1TB Spinpoint F3 - Movies, Recorded TV, Video-Projects
1.5TB WD Black - Just In Case/Temporary Storage
64GB SSD - Temporary Workspace/Quick VM/Etc.
(I'm running out of drive letters lol)

Downside: Can't really afford a backup drive this large lol. Would need some sort of RAID enclosure with 4TB drives or something. No offsite backup. Will probably get 5-bay enclosure with some 2TB drives in RAID5E when the prices return to normal.

Keeping things segregated like this gives me great performance. Running Virtual Machines doesn't interfere with Workspace, etc.

Obviously this is complicated and beyond the scope of your setup. But the same principle applies. You'll likely want more storage than just what the SSD has to offer. So keeping data stored on a second drive seems like a good idea. You'll want to keep AC+SBS on the SSD for maximum performance. Data on other hand will do just fine on a separate drive. If you want RAID, set it up now. Or else it'll be complicated later on when you'll be creating and restoring images of drives to your RAID array. You'll likely end up buying an extra drive or two.

Couldn't agree with you more on having data on a separate drive.

Missed this post. Thanks for the Carte blanche. (sp?)

Ironically, I just thought you were going a bit too fast, lol. For instance, if just learning and having fun, why get frustrated and try to set up remote access and RDC until later.

Anyway, great job. I will set up Essentials this weekend, so I can be on your level, lol. I meant a higher level. I meant a compliment.

Thanks Bert and Sandeep for all the insight--

It is fascinating to me that there are so many different ideas about how to set up what should be fairly straightforward.

Two things have emerged here that I had no idea about going into the project:

1. There is no way to keep AC from making automatic backups in its own folder, and no AC native routine for clearing out the old backups. This seems like an oversight, because I have more than once gotten error messages that backup "failed" -- and it turns out that the partition the AC program on was full. This will inevitably happen, even if the thing is running on a monster drive, because it takes about 3G or more for every backup.
I figured this out myself -- but I can imagine it would be frustrating to an AC user who didn't care much about computers, and just wanted to get his/her charts done.
I will look into the auto-remove ideas that both of you have mentioned.

2. SBS Essentials arbitrarily partitions the main drive (and doesn't invite changing partition sizes, though perhaps it could be forced.) The C partition is relatively small, and obviously is meant to be mainly for the operating system itself. D drive has folders for the clients, so it is obviously some sort of working space for the SBS system. The "folders" presumably are meant to contain "data", like documents generated by the clients -- most SBS users are likely to be non-medical offices who generate reports and the like that are different for all users, but stored on the server D drive (and maybe also locally? -- that part doesn't matter to me, we aren't going to use it that way).
AC is different-- all users share a common database, which is forced onto the C drive so far as I can tell, and might not put anything at all into the SBS "folders" on the D drive, so it is probably bigger than it needs to be, at least for our implementation.

Also, the automatic backup of SBS (which in their default setup occurs at least twice per day) a separate hard drive is required, which simply "disappears", presumably visible only to the SBS system itself, avoiding screwups by people putting things on the backup drive. It looks like AC .enc files could be added to "automatic backup" by SBS itself, but I haven't got that far. If so, then yet another drive for internal backup would be unnecessary, and the AC backup program could be used only for external backup.

Sandeep -- you have your machines loaded up with a bunch of stuff that would get you thrown out of a normal office . Games? Movies? Music? -- what are you doing all day? .
Looks to me that my office server will fit just fine into the 256G drive -- that's plenty of room for AC and Medware, especially if the auto-cleanup of old backups can be made to work.

The minimal amount of accounting we do is handled by the bookkeeper with Quickbooks on her own machine, no need for that to be on the server, since no one else needs access to it. Granted, if it were on the server, it could be included in the automatic backup, but that doesn't really seem necessary in our simple case.

Ditto word processing tasks -- the clerks don't really do much of that, and they have their own programs and routines that they don't, and don't need to, share.

So, I envision a pretty small, pretty simple, implementation of SBS in our office.

Bert--

I know what you are saying about Medware. And yes, I can run it off a flash drive, or port to any old machine. But recently I have noticed that if you take the flash drive, or simply copy the entire Emedware folder to a machine that is not on in the workgroup, and then run Emedware.exe, it runs through some sort of utility program "compressing data files", and after a while it will run. Oddly, at least with the way ours is set up, you have to run As Administrator or you get an error that says "utilities in use", and it stops.

So, I don't know what that's all about, and I'm not going to waste any time on it, because I don't really care if everyone runs with administrator permissions.

The main thing is that Medware help desk was no help at all when we asked about SBS Essentials, though they are normally very responsive. Makes me think the new owners want to peddle something else that will be more "modern" -- the way it is now is probably not HIPPA compliant, it is so insecure.

I started using Medware when it was a DOS program, then networked it with WindowsSE, so I have watched its evolution. It's a very competent program now, but maybe not suitable for the 21st century.

What do you think AC will come up with? Will I be able to replace Medware, and combine it all into AC?

Tom

Again, I don't use SBS 2011, but I think you have to get away from this folder thing. I suppose you could put things in there, but the data drive is for data. For instance, on ours, we have the databases for AC, the Medware folder, F.A.P faxes, subfolders inside a folder for transfers, etc. All-in-all, probably 20 things. A folder for a user, which I would use redirected, would take maybe 30 Mbs.

AC can easily be installed on the D: drive or even the 1 TB drive. There is a place in the install where it says where it will be put, and you either browse to a different drive or, more easily, just change the C to a D.

EVERYTHING that is important should be on the server. If you can put the Quickbooks databases on the server, then it should be on the server. If you biller's computer crashes, bye bye Quickbooks. This is what servers are for. A central computer for everything. Look at it this way. You want it so that if EVERY client crashed, you wouldn't blink an eye.

You can change the default backup to once a day. I do it at night. I don't see a need to do it twice a day. A bit of overkill, plus it has to slow down the server. Generally speaking, you have to choose volumes for SBS Backup. Just do your regular small backups for Medware and AC, and then let SBS back up everything. Once the hard drive is made, you can back up many, many whole servers. I have like 100 on mine. It is incremental, which can be changed.

I have no idea. Medware is rock solid. Usually, when you make changes, you have to do the compressed files thing in a command window. As an admin. Then you are all set. I don't know. I am not there. But, I can't see why it won't work on Essentials. Have you tried it?

Nope, it's not lol. It's just that everyone hits next on the install wizards ha. If you look closely it asks you for the location.

For SBS-E, try to only keep the OS on C:, avoid installing any extra programs because as you said that partition is only 60GB. Resizing the partition is difficult and it's not something you can do in Windows. If you wish to expand the drive, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1GP1qOReKA


The C partition is 60GB. Whatever is left goes to the D drive. 160GB minimum. They wanted a one click setup for users who aren't familiar with hard drive sizes. The only way to change it would be before the install with an answer file. The problem with that is you need to be familiar with re-authoring a disc image which, in turn, was another reason I recommend partitioning the drive the way I did.