Home Forums Discussions Problems on line backup

hello,
I just started using on line backup.
there does not seem to be a easy way to check if all the data is being backed up correctly. The first time I tried it , it took almost 5 hours for 226 mb of data, the next time it took 45 mins but only 16 mb was backed up. I know that the limiting factor is the upload speed ( mine varies from 32kbs to 92 kbs/sec on my standard DSL line ). I do not mind the time as long as I get some feedback that all my data has actually been backed up. Contacted AC and they are looking into it. It would be nice if AC could actually send a confirmation that all the data was successfully backed up. Anyone have any comments?
Bala

If you're using AC offsite, you can have it send a message to your inbox upon successful completion of the the upload. Open up the back up utility and click advanced settings. There will be an option that says Send Message to... Just fill that out and you'll get a message in your AC inbox.

Usually standard DSL is at least 384 kilobits. That's pretty slow. Dial-up is 56 kilobits. You may want to look into that.

I have to admit that I don't really understand the advantage of online backups. It is much faster and verifiable to back up to a volume on your network, or an external USB or SATA drive and take it off-site.

It could take hours to days to restore a backup from an online source, whereas the onsite backup will have you up and running in minutes.

I guess the online backup would survive a nuclear accident, tornado or tsunami wiping out your whole town, but restoring your AC backup is unlikely to be all that important in that circumstance.

That's why I recommend 3 backups.
1) Local Onsite Backup - Rapid Recovery. Virus or server goes down.
2) Local Offsite Backup - Go home and get the drive, maybe onsite was stolen or office flooded.
3) Remote Offsite Backup - Natural Disaster. You can get these in the mail. Or if you don't have #2.

The remote backup should be a last resort rather than the first choice.

I don't even use the remote offsite backup. I find it to be overrated and too user intensive. But, I do agree with Sandeep.

I thought you backed up your data to Amazon S3?

Sandeep is correct. But, there are a few things here worth commenting on. I don't generally comment, but I will here. AC .enc backups are full backups. They don't get smaller, they only get bigger each day as you add more data. My guess is your second backup was without II. If your plan is to back up online, then I would stop backing up imported items now. If it were ONLY local, then do both. But, I would strongly suggest that you begin backing up your imported items separately.

I cannot believe that you asked the Guardian Angels if there were a notification system, and they said they would have to check. Commmunication problem somewhere.

Sandeep is correct on how to turn on the notification, but you are better off every so often check manually. The backups will be:

1) In the cloud if you chose that
2) Any place you chose a path for
3) By default, in the BACKUP folder in Amazing Charts folder (not a great idea, but one that AC thinks is good)

You need to check anyway, because if your backup file get bigger and you end up leaving 30 backups in the BACKUP folder that drive will continue to get larger, and you won't know why. I back up 161MB of data after over five years so I would accrue 1GB of backups in 6.2 days. So, it wouldn't take long if I didn't check or know before I a lot of space on one drive. And, AC backups are different than regular backups. Image backups or file by file backups can be sixty days old and still have the benefit of containing files you may need. .enc backups are pretty much worthless after five to ten days.

But, anyway, if you make a shortcut to the BACKUP folder to your desktop, you can delete files and check them periodically. All sorts of info on here about scripts or software programs to do it automatically.

Any reference to the tech support team other than Guardian Angels was not intended.

Used to, then just Rsync, then just different trust the mirror setups. I take one home once a week. I am getting ready to set up Rsync to home.

John,

I have credibility as I had posted about not backing up remotely before I read your post. It depends how and why you are backing up online. If you use dedupe where it takes a mere minutes to back up pointers, it can be worth it. Even incremental is OK. Even if your backup is going to take two weeks and you aren't using the "let them send you your data on a hard drive" method, you probably have that much time if Dash of the Incredibles takes a wrong turn and hits your office. I still haven't decided the perfect online backup. But, AC's backup is rather solid.

I really do believe that the human factors component is not adequately considered in many of these discussions. I think what Sandeep has stated is perfectly outlined for an ideal world, but I personally skip #2. The human performance issues in remembering to take home a local backup every night virtually guarantees that I will forget for the crucial few days before the disaster, and therefore that backup will be missing considerable data that will be present on the online backup. I know very few practicing physicians who have sufficient self discipline and compulsiveness to guarantee that a backup goes home every night, after the novelty wears off and the drudgery sets in.

Retrieving our online backup (done monthly to make sure it is not corrupt) takes overnight. Anything that takes out our entire server room is going to take longer than that to clean up, and we won't be seeing patients while they do.

I don't have that discipline either which is why I come up with crafty ways to be lazy.

My backup system is this:
Local Level:
1) Use the AC Backup Utility to backup the database only to two locations. One is the AC folder, Two is an external hard drive. (I have script which deletes the enc files older than 60 days, scheduled to run every night.)
2) Let SBS do its full image backup to an external hard drive.
3) Daily SBS Report (email) informs me of the backup status among other things.

Offsite Remote Level:
1) iBackup to backup System State (AD, other stuff), Exchange, SharePoint, and possibly SQL (if AC will ever release that SA Password/type it in for me)
2) Backup the .enc file (without II) and backup incremental files (imported items, folder redirections, shared folders, etc.)
3) Email Report informs me of any files that failed to backup, how much my backup grew by.

Onsite Local Level (Download >> Upload):
1) Hot Site restore with iBackup to a virtual machine on my desktop (in LA).
2) Daily restoration of files on a ready to go virtual machine.
3) Restore Reports emailed as well.

And, yes, I use Rules in outlook to have my incoming emails sorted lol. I also have my RAID controller verify my array weekly and battery backup unit and send me an email too. Lets me know if I should be expecting a hard drive failure any time soon.

What do I do? Absolutely nothing

Thanks Sandeep and Bert for the great suggestions. I have to admit that being a relative novice , I did not understand the complexity of the backups required.
The AC notification does not tell me the file size that was backed up on line , just the local AC backup folder file size . This makes me uneasy as i dont know for sure that all my data was backed up.
also can you please explain how to backup imported items separately? Do I have to use a different software ? My Seagate external HD does tell me it is backing up imported items .
Is that sufficient ?
I am afraid I do not have the computer know how to be able to perform all the backups you are describing.
I Just attended a HIPAA security meeting and they told me that any off site ext HD need to be stored in a fireproof safe bolted to the ground and which has a combination known only to the physician !
thanks
Bala

Did they specify the bolt size, number of bolts, and whether or not grade 8 bolts were required?

Those guys seriously need to read The Little Prince again, the part where the king demands absolute obedience, but gets it by only giving reasonable orders...

The AC notification basically tells if you're backup was successful which is the same. You can test a restore in your free time.

For offsite backup, this seems to be the only way to go. There's no way people can upload II everyday. Some people have 30 GBs of II. If you included those in your upload every night, you would never finish. For example to upload a 2GB database at 384 kilobits/second (standard DSL, yours is less than a third of this speed). Here's a basic calculation assuming max speed:




If you want to offsite backup imported items, you'll need something that does incremental backups. That's basically every offsite service out there, Carbonite, Mozy, CrashPlan, etc. AC's Offsite backup just backs up the database. Imo, it's probably better to just get Crashplan, Mozy, etc. directly since it can also backup the .enc files along with everything else.

The Seagate drive would be your onsite backup. You should try to keep a full image backup of your server on that along with a file backup. Sounds like you have just file backup at the moment. That's fine though.

HIPAA tends to be intentionally vague when it comes to security. I doubt this is necessary. Encryption and common sense would be much easier than bolting a safe to the ground and having to remove/replace the drive daily. Then again those fireproof/waterproof ioSafe drives are pretty nice. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822501025

If not, everyone would be using servers with Active Directory.

The way we do backups isn't required. It's just what we suggest. Most people are happy just taking their database home on a flash drive daily. Unfortunately AC isn't the only thing I have to worry about. My goal is to maintain uptime to the best of my ability and, of course, do so in a reasonable price range.

Bala,
I wrote this about a year ago; I think the advice still applies. I think it is also relatively easy to understand.
Locking-down your drive is an option. You can also put it in a locked drawer (with wires running through the back) or in a closet, if you feel the need; I do not.
When people talk about taking their data home daily, I always quote this event because of its irony. There are innumerable stories like it.

Please someone figure out why my math is wrong. Thanks.

OK, I want to try to simplify things. I thing as good of advice as you are getting, and you are getting good advice (had to read Jon's post which was bigger because it was somewhat based on my post), but it was excellent.

But, from your perspective you are probably hearing, "Ok backup offline but only the .enc but make sure you back up your II locally, but only five versions. Take one home after you have backed up the II and .enc. then back up the whole server. Then bolt down your whole house. Seriously, taking all this apart is good. I just thought for now, I would try make it easier.

OK, concentrate mainly as John recommended on your local backups. e.g. forget Mozy and taking hard drives home, etc. Eventually, maybe even two weeks from now, take a thumb drive home or hard drive.

Now, my infamous general to specific. Put everything down and put all of your thoughts into backing up your ENTIRE computer. I prefer imaging vs file by file, but either is fine. Now I noticed you didn't list your computer, or maybe you did, and I didn't notice, but if your main computer is WIN 7, you already have a backup program.

Now, I just said that it is a decent backup program. Many like it. Problem I have with it is that it is made by Microsoft and, with the exception of the 2008 Servers and up, they have never got it right. Acronis is rock solid, except they pay someone a huge salary to make it more and more complex. And, his salary must be going up, because he is doing a great job. I personally hate any backup software that uses the word vault.

Back up your entire program to an external drive. Now keeping with this theme, you MUST back up to at least two drives. I back up to five, for each day of the week. This is about 1/5th of my backup strategy, but we can skip that.

So, I HIGHLY recommend Backup Assist. It has a trial, is easy to use, allows you to do any type of backup and will work with your VSS (forget for now) and is IMO, the most rock solid, best for the money backup program out there for the midsize office. Depends what you want to pay, but it costs $249 for the basic software, and has INCREDIBLE support. If you end up liking it, you can then add the SQL Server module and be able to back up your entire SQL Server AmazingCharts instance at any interval you wish. I back up mine every 15 minutes. Takes about two to three seconds.

1. Get a good backup program and back up your computer to an external drive. More than one. Two, three whatever. Remember, there may actually be more stuff on there than AC. Like your billing software or important files.
2. Your AC program will back up nightly. You can figure that out, but you get the (silly) backup in Amazing Charts\BACKUPS, you can send one or two to the external drives. No need to send offsite, but if $250 is worth it, then OK. I don't like the fact that I can't download my backup, I have to call. That makes no sense.
3. II. OK, they are already in the whole server backup. But, there is no problem setting up a second backup plan in Backup Assist that backs them up separately.

Take home. Great idea. Some people do it weekly. Some do it daily! Mine is sitting on my desk with a backup from three months ago. Plus, you do have to be careful with security. Some use thumb drives. Well, it's pretty easy to lose those. But, add that to your plan when you want.

So, do onsite, multiple backups. I only have 70 backups for 3.5 months. I don't understand the math either, but it's 14 backups per drive divided by 4.

Bert's right. Get the local onsite down, then work your way up to offsite backup.

My recommendation is too keep it automatic. Maybe setup a reporting system to keep track of your backups.

To add, Sandeep is correct (mutual admiration society), but you want to keep it automatic, but check every week or so.

I had my 3 months of backups only to check and realize I wasn't backing any of my D drive up. (all my data) Just didn't check it off in Backup Assist.

Also Backup Assist will help you with back up strategies. And, I (or maybe Sandeep) can log in to your computer and set it up for you.

many thanks to you Bert and Sandeep.
I have XP and am planning to use their backup wizard initially to backup 'all the info on the computer' as they claim.
Since I have a Seagate ext HD as my second backup wanted to try their Disk wizard which allows cloning the hard drive. Will also keep backup assist in mind.
I Fear I was a bit premature in subscribing to the AC online backup not realizing how long it would take !
will be getting another ext HD for 3rd backup also .
bala

XP's backup wizard is pretty lousy. It's basically a file backup. With Windows Vista and above they have a full image backup and a file backup. Using the Seagate Disk+XP Backup should give you the same features though.

Also using a USB 3.0/eSATA drive will greatly decrease the amount of time it takes to backup. Assuming your computer has one of those ports.

It takes me about two minutes to back up my AC backup online. Not sure why yours takes so long unless you are backing up II. Click on Advanced and turn off II. Then, it will be worth it.

Yes, get eSata card. Much faster. And, you can remove the drives. Already you are making it complicated again. XP for one drive, using the drive backup software for another. I would almost never use the backup software on an external drive. That is to back up pictures. This is your practice. Everything you worked for. IT IS MISSION CRITICAL. Get Backup Assist or Acronis or other good product. What is $259.00 for that. Plus you can add SQL. Final advice.

I thought you didn't do offsite backup. I think you mentioned that you have an upload of 5 megabits/second. Hers is 30-90 kilobits. Takes her up to 170 times longer than it would take you. I.e. if your database is 200 MB, it would take you about 5-6 minutes to backup at 5 megabits/second. At 30 to 90 kilobits, it can take anywhere from 5 hours to 15 hours.

This is why AC needs to setup an incremental system for backups lol.

I Agree incremental backups would be great.
It was not clear when I initially subscribed to the online backup that it would take that long and AC does not elaborate on their website. The last 2 backups including II took 1 hour. Just feel cheated that now I have to find another on line backup for II thats all.
I agree with you Bert,

The seagate cloning software is produced by Acronis that is why I was considering it . It is a separate down load and did not come with the drive
will certainly look at backup assist as suggested by you
thank you very much for all your suggestions
bala

Send an email to AC or ping them and ask them if you can get your money back. Tell them you didn't understand the whole process. They are likely to refund you.

@Sandeep,

I was referring to the AC online backup. But, I hardly think Bala's database compressed is larger than mine. I would guess he/she is backing up II.

Eventually it will be. My database is around the same size as yours. My upload however is a fraction of yours ha.