Home Forums Discussions General Discussion The great irony of posting risk

I hope I do not offend anyone, but I can't resist writing this. And, it seems like such an irony. In advance, I apologize to all the new posters like Zak, et. al.

But, isn't is ironic that the members who who seem to be the most interested in shaping Amazing Charts and steering its direction such as Paul, Wayne, Roy, Brian, joseph, Barbara, Leslie, and apricot, are the most at risk at violating the EULA and losing their license?

Not that I think that would ever happen.

Please forgive me if this question seems obtuse, but:

How exactly am I at risk of violating the EULA?

I apologize in advance if my reasoning powers are impaired. I am a little dull today. I have conjunctivitis, and call kept me up until 0400 this AM.

The EULA in force prohibits us from discussion of Amazingcharts and its contents on any public forum which includes the internet. I have made revision on the WIKI to address this but it appears no one really cares to look at it.

But, Brian, your medical condition (conjunctivitis) is a valid excuse from looking at the WIKI.

FROM THE GREAT EULA: "You may not use the Program, or any of the Medications, ICD, or CPT information contained therein in any public electronic bulletin board, or public computer based information system (including the Internet and World Wide Web)."

Brian,
I am in a hurry to get some work done and get to this afternoon's games that I an scheduled to officiate, but here is the reader's digest version of what Bert is trying to say.

Right now in the EULA there is a clause or passage that basically says that AC has the right to terminate any user for reasons that they do not have to justify or defend. Just because they want to. Without getting all snippy again, there was a customer service issue that got very heated and out of hand and actual termination was started. Only when the customer (I wonder who?) backed down and declared peace for fear of lossing useful and meaningful access to their data and database was some amount of peace restored. Having your raw data without the database program that it is created in is just about meaningless and useless to the majority of users. Sure one may or may not be able to spend a few thousand dollars with some private third party attempting to convert their data to work inside some other program, but that is never a sure thing and the costs are certainly frightening and unknown until the project is complete. Not a pretty picture for most of us.

Furthermore, if I am not mistaken in the termination section of the EULA is language that defines speaking ill about the company (AC) as a grounds for termination. So much like the situation above if anyone of us was to voice our displeasure with the product itself or the service we do or don't recieve from tech support let's say, we have now most probably crossed the line, and by the terms of the present EULA, could be potentially terminated. Trust me, unfortunately this is all too real and as I told you once before it was a very dark day at that practice when all hell broke loose for voicing customer opinion whether right or wrong. Just writing like this as I am doing right now, here on the user board, can be seen as grounds for termination in the present language of the EULA. I am not the only one who has read it this way and I encourage all users to go and read the entire document for themselves.

I suggest to those who are involved, who do claim to care and be active members, even those who are interlopers and watchers, to go read the present EULA. And when you do don't think about it in terms of when all things are good and smooth, but think about it in terms of when things are not good and one is banging on the door needing to be assisted when their system or data is blown to bits and your practice is just sitting there slowly whithering away while your charts are less than perfect. Such contracts should properly define boths sides rights and obligations, not just be some crafty lawyer's way of keeping one side completely free and clear of any and all actions, no matter how good or bad they have been.

Same thing with the service section and agreement. Look at the website and read the description of Guardian Angel and then read the section of the EULA that covers support and see how much they jive in your own mind. Go back and forth a few times between the two and see what you yourself think. Do they seem to be saying the same thing? Do they support and re-enforce one another or do they conflict and neutralize one or the other??? Does one say one thing while the other says something completely different? Do that and then I'd love to hear some feedback from some others beside just Me, Bert and Roy.

Anyway, Got to get me to the rink on time. Games to do... Have a great weekend and good luck to all my fellow east coasters with the storm coming tonight.... Be safe out there....
Paul

I've looked at your additions, Roy. They looked very reasonable to me. I had hoped to have time to transport some EULA comments from here to the Wiki, but I am a bit overwhelmed right now, time-wise.

Brian, It was all pretty much tongue-in-cheek. Of course, I do think the EULA does prohibit one from using words that others of us cannot understand like "obtuse."

I guess my post was based on the Catch22: Those of us who have taken the time to question some of the features of Amazing Charts and make it better are also possibly violating certain tenets of the EULA. And, those who kind of sit back and benefit from the fruits of our labor do not. Of course, it is only fair that to recognize that freedom of speech also allows us to have freedom to not speak as well. Maybe those who read or do not read but definitely do not write, get home at 6:00PM.

Roy, I completely feel your pain on the non feedback issue. I have been struggling with it myself as you know. On the one hand, I do not want to come across as some egotisical poster who has to have a slap on the back when I offer advice or ideas. I don't even care if it is complimentary. I would simply love it if someone said, "I tried your SyncToy suggestion, and it sucked." This gives valuable feedback to others.

I don't know about EULA, but I do think internet communication exposes physicians to liability. Patients can find their physicians online and use their online statements for potential ligitations. That's why I don't want to sign my name under the posts.

I have to agree with Apricot as far as you can be found online. I had a patient find one of my websites and send me a VERY LONG post on what she thought was going on with her.

When I saw her next - she sheepishly said to be, "I guess I overstepped my limits" to which I replied yes and explained why. I now have on that website a note for pts to call the office.

Along the same lines, I guess we should include a disclaimer with anything that is written.

Back to topic at hand: I'm bad. I glance at the EULA's of everything and it's in one eye and out the other...so thanks for the heads up.

Is it time to retire yet?

Bert: I've not looked at synch toy. I've not played with the synch feature. Just want you to know, you are not being ignored.

Rainy,

I know that you would never ignore me.

It's funny, because it used to be you could go on dating sites and meet people just with a profile (which I am horrible at). Now all the women have these pictures, and they pretty much won't talk to you if you don't have a picture. Now, I am not going to put my picture up there for all to see. So, here I am, still single.

INSERT DISCLAIMER HERE

Barbara, as far as EULAs go, reading them are practically useless. One can't install any software without agreeing to it so you really have no option.

Bert et al,
Sorry you guys are feeling under-appreciated or unloved by the silent or relatively silent majority. You obviously have a great passion for AC and that is to be commended. But you are in the minority, kind of like MOPAR fans (that was for you Paul, I understand you because my brother is a MOPAR fan too). A lot of us who don't write much are doing good to get here and read posts, much less respond (so I had better get some nice feedback for even posting!). We all have different priority lists and right now the AC board is not high on my list. Sure I glance thru to see if there is useful info for me but that is all the time I chose to alot right now. So I won't be posting about SyncToy because I won't be taking time out to play with it, not because I don't care(sorry Bert!). With respect to the EULA stuff, I am glad you guys are on top of that because you are obviously WAY more anal about this stuff than I am and I don't think you will let any sh......stuff get by you (sorry about the potty humor but I couldn't resist). Hope this didn't come across as mean or spiteful. It was just meant to be an honest response from a normally quiet fellow AC user who was tired of reading comments about the "nonresponders". Please keep up the good work so the rest of us can quietly ride your coat-tails (much as we are all riding Jon's coat-tails by using AC in the first place)! I promise to post more if I think you guys are getting out of line or if I have something important to add, but otherwise I will probably just keep reading!

David, thanks for your post. We appreciate it or at least I do. Like I stated, this may be a controversial post. I don't expect everyone to try out SyncToy or use it (and if they don't, they certainly can't comment on it). But, many suggestions get 75 to 100 people looking at it (some are the same people), and I have to believe some of these are looking at the suggestion or idea.

When you make a product (AmazingMeds.mdb) that took over two months to make and even more hours to refine and it gets downloaded over 70 times, I would think that maybe one person (yes one person) would comment on it or say thank you. So far, in one other post, there has been one. Now, this is always a circular thing, because you shouldn't do something to get thanked, but I still think it is common courtesy to get a few acknowledgements.

I appreciate your taking the time to write, and I hope you don't take this personally, but there are a few of us out there trying to chage things for the better especially for the users when it comes to management, and there are a lot more "riding out coat tails." And, I don't think I am riding Jon's coat tail at all. He made a product; I bought it.

Bert,

Points taken....and not personally! Didn't know your MDB was downloaded that much without a simple thanks. I think all of us in the medical field know how it feels to work your butt off and not get at least some acknowledgement. But as the Monty Python song goes, "Always look on the bright side of life!" Whistle, whistle, whistle.......

At least take solace in the fact that you are widely respected and admired as the "postmaster", or is it the "Postmaster General?" Have a good one and go out and have some fun instead of reading the boards tonight! I am only here again because I am procrastinating from doing the catch up work I need to do!

David,

Thanks for the kind words. Hopefully, you will procrastinate more so we can have the benefit of a few more posts. You are very correct, I do need to get more of a life and get out once in awhile

Have a great weekend!

David,
Thanks for finally speaking up. To a large extent this is what is needed. Without others speaking up than our efforts are for naught. Whether is be about some bug in the works that makes everyone's life less productive or someone like me who really stuck my neck out on the line to try and warn the entire community here we need you coat-tailers to speak up and get involved; at least a little.

You don't have to be the post master general like Bert. But when something like the EULA puts us all at risk of loosing the program that we are all charting in, then darn it you folks have to get in here and lend a hand. To not do so is pretty cheap and leaves the few of us who are doing the heavy lifting here, with our fannies hanging out in the breeze. I still think of Linda Hamilton in the first terminator whenever I think of the termination clause in the EULA, at the end when she finally defeats him in the crusher; "You're terminated F@&#er!" It is very frightening.

And here's the real deal. After what we experienced here I felt it would have been immoral of me, Nancy too, we both did, if we didn't speak up and say something. We're talking about over a thousand providers or practices worth of patients and providers being less than properly secure in one of the most important tools in their practices, their charts and charting software. The only reason we are having this discuss about the EULA is because we didn't just go hide under some rock and leave everybody else to simply fend for themselves. And like Bert after sticking our necks out like that Nancy and I really never got a real thanks from anyone other than this tight little group of regulars who obviously said their thanks be engaging with us in lively discussion to keep important topics alive.

Whether it is Dr Al with his fight to stand up against CCHIT for all providers and patients, Village Medical warning others about a legal document that may one day effect them greatly, Bert and Vinny with their great tech advice, it would be really nice if a few others would get involved. If you don't get involved then you have no right to bitch, right?

I'm trying to write to the local medical society, catch the attention of our local NBC affiliate about CCHIT and Vaccine Registries and some local elected reps. And as I've said in some other threads, I have created that handout for our patients to warn them about all this CCHIT, have you made one up and started to hand it out. Things like CCHIT hide incidously in backrooms of some industry few while the public knows nothing of them until it is too late. We who now know and know better have an ethical obligation to speak up and warn the general public here before it is all too late.

Either we open our mouths and get cracking or continue to bend over, because the powers that be certainly have providers and citizens in their sights for more pain. Centralized databases of people's health information indeed. Imagine where we would be today if Paul Revere, Ben Franklin and a host of others choose to sit the darn thing out. This is serious CCHIT and we all need to get off our fannies, roll up our sleeves and get in here.

Anyway your brother must be a very smart, but masacistic kind of guy to not just follow the pack and buy some piece of garbage Chevy. It's MOPAR or No Car! Kind of like us NY Ranger fans. And you must have a good perspective on life and care about the issues we talk about here if you are smart enough to be a doc and apperciate the finer things in life like Python. So come on, don't be like the parrott nailed to the bloody perch ready to be pushing up the daisies. It is the combined voices that count and make a difference and we need each and everyone of you out there. Otherwise, Open Wide because here comes lots a bad CCHIT my friend, and it won't taste very good going down.....

Good Night and Good Luck,
Paul

David, now see what you done? LOL You got Paul all riled up again. We try to keep his blood pressure down on the weekend.

<G>

The section of the EULA being referred to is one that I'm sure I didn't even take a second glance at (like most people do with most EULAs). But as this thread has shown up in my private messages, I'll go look that over.

It definitely is a problem to be threatened with losing your program license for criticizing the company that makes the software, or criticizing its functionality. Because basically the way you call attention to problems is to "criticize" in one way or another. You can call it "suggesting an improvement." or you can call it a rose bush, its still the same thing. And if you feel its a needed change and the mfg doesnt respond to you, you criticize publicly to bring more attention to the issue and hopefully have others say "yeah, ya'll should change that."

One thing I learned from my time selling copier (yeah, I sold copiers for a few years in Manhattan). As long as your customer is complaining, either quietly or loudly, you actually have a customer who wants to use your product and will buy from you again if you just fix the problem. You don't start to worry about having lost that customer until the STOP complaining and the problem is still there. 'cause then the have given up on you and won't buy from you again. So threatening to take the product away because they criticized your product or company is really not the brightest thing to do. You want them to complain--itsa form of what is called "customer feedback" or "voice of the customer."

Wayne that is brilliant. I like it. I do think that same company should then try to fix that problem. On a related note, when I have an issue with a company, and they quickly rectify the situation, it makes me a customer for life. So, one can take a bad thing and turn it around.



I understand your comment. I do disagree a bit though. I think saying, "It would be nice if one could put in fake patients in a separate database is a little different than saying, "Not being able to use a separate database sucks." But, itis all semantics. And, I see your point completely.

But what about bitching here or to the company about poor service and/or bad communication about the same? Are we now obligated to sign a legal contract the absolves us of all of our rights as consumers to voice our displeasure and to be an apporiate pains in the butt so as to get needed assistance?

Dismissing someone because they may have a valid disagreement with you over product, features, and service is unethical and possibly illegal under most states' consumer protection laws. But where do we all stand with a new contract that we didn't originally sign on with, that gets slammed down our throats just so we can avail ourselves to the updates that we already paid for? Furthermore, where is the ethics or the law on since we must, by this contract continue to pay for updates and more importantly just to continue to use the product to access and create our data, must we, can a company force us to then accept new terms via, click on and accept EULA, to continue doing like wise year after year, update after update? What about my "grandfather" idea to protect against badly executed updates to the EULA? Otherwise as more of us get "hooked" and invested deeper in any product, be it AC or anyother, the corporation can just keep moving the goalposts on us? Where is the basic ethical justice in that? Is that what this corporation has come to??? I certainly hope not.

And the point you make about you never read it, is part of the larger point I have been trying to raise now with all of you for years. Most of us, Nancy and myself included never gave a second thought for the first year or so to re-read the EULA that we already thought we knew. But there it is, all changed out on all of us. What should we do, just simply walk away from our updates and use of the product now that the goalposts have been moved??? Come on, give me a break. That is (Fill in your own blank)....

Like I said to everyone, read the darn thing real well and then please post your feelings and thoughts about it. And remember to imagine bad times, not just good time you think you know now.

Who said the following:

"We in America do not have government by the majority. We have government by the majority who participate."

And no Googling!

And, it is completely true.

Gang, you're missing something. The EULA does NOT forbid discussing the product on a public forum. It forbids USING the product over the internet:

"You may not USE THE PROGRAM, or any of the Medications, ICD, or CPT information contained therein in any public electronic bulletin board, or public computer based information system (including the Internet and World Wide Web)."

This says nothing about discussing it. Part of this is dictated by the licenses that Jon had to sign to get the CPT and ICD databases, in that they CAN NOT be republished, including online. Part of this is also to prevent someone from turning AC into a web-enabled service, in essence ripping Jon off and charging other people for the use of AC through their web portal.

CAN WE ALL PLEASE CALM DOWN AND GET A GRIP!

Thanks,

V.