Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Sandeep simplified redux please

REALLY need some help/recommendations from the IT savy portion of this motley crew community :-)

We need 11 new desktops at our office. Our servers run on W2003R2. Desktops will be primarily running AC 6.2 whenever it finally comes out (using 5029 now), EHS billing software (housed on one of our servers), Adobe Acrobat and MS Office (rarely).

Need an out of the box recommenation to maximize speed for AC on local desktops using AC modules including prescription writing, printing, etc. Minimum processor, Win 7pro, ? RAM, SSD vs HD, etc preferably already built getting the best value for speed running AC. Currently using 5029 our prescription module is VERY slow on our older computers w slow processors and <4MB RAM.

Hoping for some easy suggestions.

tnx,
James Clayton, M.D.
US Virgin Islands

Is your current server (Server 2003R2) 64 bit or 32 bit? I'd probably upgrade the server first since server 2003R2 mainstream support has reached end of life. I'd definitely upgrade if your server is 32 bit. Also, if your database is large, it may time out when running the database tuner for version 6, typically when servers/main computers are running 32 bit versions of Windows (w/slower processors). Of course, you could just upload it to AC Support, but if your database is very large, that could take a while. You also might want to upgrade to a gigabit switch as well. This will let you move files across the network much more quickly (10 times, not exaggerating).

How slow is the prescription writer exactly? (Like 5 seconds, 10 seconds?) Mine runs pretty smoothly on v6 on 7 year old desktops with Pentium 4s and ~1GB of RAM. (Upgrading like you too though.) Most users didn't have issues in v5 with the prescription writer. Try disabling hardware acceleration (instructions in my signature). Who knows, it might work for v5.

You'll should definitely consider deploying a master image for this install. Installing software on 11 computers can be very very time consuming.

Here are my suggestions for pre-built desktops (I didn't really look at any other OEMs besides Dell). Lenovos are pretty good but quite pricey. I'd go with the Optiplex 990 since it comes preinstalled with XP mode and is Q67. But it's interesting to see the large price difference when the hardware is virtually identical

Dell Vostro 260 Good - $530
Discounted Vostro 260s. (Preconfigured) <- Preloaded with discount codes. $80 bucks more if you configure your own.


Downsides:
-I can't verify if these support PXE should you decide to use a WDS Server for deployment.
-These are based on the H61 chipset (Home). The ones in my recommended in my suggested section use the Q67 Chipset (Corporate). Q67 is pretty much guaranteed to work for deployment. Everything is Intel based.
-No Solid State Drives (SSDs). These will give you the lightning fast feel. Probably the biggest improvement over older computers by far. People blindly keep adding RAM/memory to their system. It's usually the hard drive that's the limiting factor nowadays. Most people* don't use over 3GB of memory, even gamers. So 4GB is enough. You can add more later.
-1 Year Warranty (can upgrade to 3 for ~$100)

Optiplex 990 Very Good - $794
Dell Optiplex 990 <- Click Here for Preconfigured Desktop


You can downgrade to the 250gb hard drive if desired.

Downsides:
-No SSDs. You can add this afterwards too. If you do go with an SSD, you should downgrade to the 250GB hard drive.

As Sandeep aludes to, the Q67 is vastly superior. IF I get a pre-built, which would be Lenovo, I would add an SSD SATA III 120GB drive and install WIN 7 Pro, then format the OS that came with it and use that drive for backups. You don't need great backups on clients so using the WIN7 Pro imaging backup will do quite nicely. Although, I don't believe you can mount it. Sandeep correct me if I am wrong on that.

SSDs are sweet, and again as Sandeep says, it will make your computer extremely fast. Just open Word on your PC and watch the add-ins load one by one. Then try that on an SSD. Good luck. You won't see one of them. Reboots in under 15 seconds. I still have one in under 8.2 seconds at the combine.

I would recommend Crucial or Intel. I have moved from OCZ to Intel. Difficult as the specs for OCZ are so good, but until I know for a fact they are as reliable as Sandeep's Crucials, I am going with Intel. Both companies are rock solid.

The other thing I would do is only order it with 2GBs of RAM, remove them and add 2 X 4GB of Kingston or Crucial RAM. Sandeep, again, is right you don't need much, but you can get 8GBs for around $45 and use the wasted expensive RAM to add to other computers IF compatible.

But, I build most of mine.

Oh, and the most important thing is to get SSDs.

Perfect, read my mind ha. The alternative would be to enable folder redirection on your server. (Preferred) Or client backup with SBS Essentials. Then if you use an online backup service, all the files in the folder redirection/client backups will get uploaded into the cloud without having to buy separate licenses for each computer.

If using folder direction, you can use an even smaller SSD. 64 GB SATA III SSD. For 128 models, some good ones are the Corsair Force GT (it's red like a sports car), Corsiar Force 3, OCZ Vertex 3 (Performance), Intel 510 (Bert's Preferred/Industry Standard), or Crucial M4 (My preferred). Can't go wrong with any of these.

Or you can take all the hard drives and put them in a giant RAID array for your server/local backups. You can make a pretty crazy array with 10 hard drives.

I think we need to open a computer shop. I think I have an Intel 510 sitting on my bathroom counter. How sick is that. SSDs lying around the house. And, you took the words out of my mouth. Those things are beautiful. Makes you want to take the computer open daily just to see them. Just like your RAM.

And, the boxes they come in. Actually, Smartphones really compete with packaging. I don't even want to take it out.

RAID: I love a mirror coupled with a RAID5. RAID10 is nice too. What do you think of a RAID60. Just reaching.

G.Skill is pretty good too (Best ratings across the board). All of my recent builds use G.Skill. Corsair XMS is another good one. I think the stock RAM should suffice though. There's another model of Optiplex 990 that comes with 2GB. You can buy a bunch of those and upgrade it with 3rd party RAM too. I just priced it up and it's actually more expensive to use that base model. $814 for the same stuff with 2GB of RAM. The one above is better.

Fixed your broken quote. A good tip is you should always do 2 X 4GB = 8 than 4 X 2GB = 8 for RAM. Also, not a bad idea to download the .iso of Memtest+ or 86 and run it for 24 hours just to be sure your RAM is good or seated properly.

RAID 60 would give the best protection. 8 drives minimum. That would be amazing. Probably have to get a legit RAID card too ha.


My case has a side panel window with 2 Meters of White LEDs around it. I look inside all the time ha. I have 2 64 GB Crucial M4s sitting on my desk ha. (RAID 0 Overkill? Ha)

RAID0 would be interesting. Nah, we could just recommend software RAID, lol.

James, let us know when we have hijacked your post. I think this would actually be hijacked but to the correct destination if that makes sense.

Good Tip with the RAM. Prime 95 too if you build your own.

Ummmm... Guys.... I think you may have lost your audience. Your sure lost me.

Sandeep's post with the links "This one good, this one better" was really helpful. But, I must question the actual utility of some of the other suggestions.

For example: we have a Gigabit switch. My client machine has the option of going hardwired or wireless. Obviously, hardwired is oodles faster. But, you know what? I can't really tell the difference in day to day operations. Most of my time is taken in thinking what I want to say, what that lab test means, whether those numb feet are from diabetes or B12 deficiency, and all those zillions of medical decisions that we do all the time. The network speed, or the speed of the hard drive is so far from the limiting factor of what time I go home each day that it is not even a consideration.

I remember some computer conference where the speed available from different database coding techniques was being discussed, specifically the speed gained by compiling a database. The example used was some function that had like 100,000 looping math operations. And, yes, it was LOTS faster running compiled than interpreted. So, I jumped through a bunch of hoops and compiled my application. And, it made almost no noticeable difference. In my application, an operation running compiled might take 5 msec and running interpreted might take 300 msec. But, to the user, it made no observable difference.

So, my question to you both; of your suggestions, which would make a real impact on day to day operations? Is there a reliability gain?

The variability of wireless speeds is pretty large. Do you really waiting 30 seconds for a chart to open when on WiFi. There was a pretty large uproar with a 10 second delay for the prescription writer. Staff definitely notices a difference when using WiFi. You also have to take into account the network load. If you have 2-3 computers, 100 Mbit is pretty good. When you have 10, gigabit tends to be more useful with everyone accessing files and whatnot. Also, you have to take into account the location of your files. If everything is one place like a server setup. Its bandwith can easily become saturated. For instance, I have folder redirection enabled on my server so no files are stored on the workstations. Everything is on the network. You can see how my network is my new bottleneck.

The other thing is maintenance. Lots of things can go wrong with wireless. Bad range, dropped connections, losing connection to the database. These issues are pretty much non-existent for wired. Pretty simple A to B Operation.

I don't if you've used an SSD before, but once you do, it's pretty hard to go back to a regular hard drive. Multitasking works much better. Everything is more fluid. There are no moving parts in an SSD, so mechanical failure isn't possible. So you get the reliability aspect. I think there's even a guy on youtube jumping on a trampoline with 20 SSDs plugged in. There's no delay when opening or closing programs. I know some doctors leave computers on all the time because they take too long to boot.

What it boils down too is the user's ability. If he or she benefits from the speed, then go ahead and get them. What you could do is put an SSD on your personal computer and see how you like it before upgrading all of the computers. Considering I have 40 windows open now and using 8GB of RAM, constantly opening and closing programs. It's worth it for me. (Extreme case) Even if you're not that crazy. Everyone enjoys a responsive computer. Getting an SSD was the best upgrade in my opinion. Everyone I know who has used them start to hate hard drives.

I think everything from 42028 to 42038 isn't that helpful. That is why I talked about the hijack to the correct destination. It isn't really hijacked off to scanners. All of them may offer something.

I don't think 8GB is necessary, but like Sandeep, I have 15 browsers open, five programs and an antivirus program running in the background. Still only using 3GBs of RAM

There are four major things to look at:

1. Processor - i7 2600s are nice -- can probably use i5. Doubt you could tell the difference.
2. RAM - beteen 4GB and 8GB non buffered RAM for a desktop
3. Hard drive -- SSD, SSD, SSD, SSD (do you recall that time when you watched those little icons load in the system tray? Gone.) Never see them load again.
4. NIC card -- not wireless. Make it a Gb.

1. i7-2600s are nice but the hyperthreading has no benefit unless you use multithreaded applications like video encoding or SQL/Exchange Server. It's great on your "main" computer/server, but has virtually no use in an office computer.
2. Agreed. Get 4GB first, if you need more, (unlikely) get more. It's $20 bucks for 4GB sticks. I'm using 8GB currently (I have 16GB) because I have things running in the background, (SFTP server, VMs). Not things your average person runs.
3. SSDs are a godsend.
4. I think almost all of them are gigabit nowadays. You have to look hard to find a new desktop that doesn't have integrated gigabit. Another reason we recommend a gigabit switch is that it's only slightly more than a regular switch. Furthermore, it's getting harder and harder to find 100 mbit switches when you get 10 times the speed for 10/20 bucks more. Data demands are getting higher and higher. Makes no sense to go with the old stuff.

Also, on the note of gigabit switches. Another reason I was recommending them was for WDS Deployment (installing Windows 7 over the network). Fully customized Win 7 images can easily break 10 gigabytes. Would you want to be on a 100 Megabit (12.5 megabytes/second) switch when you're loading that image on 11 computers or would you want to be on a 1 gigabit switch (125 Megabytes/second)?

Yeah, I would say your biggest reason to have increased RAM is VMs. They take the amount of RAM you give them, which can be a lot.

Especially with SBS tutorials . That Exchange grabs any free RAM it can find too lol.

Just like SQL. Gotta love the famous memory "leaks." The viscous circle of having 2GB of RAM, SQL stores its pages to become more efficient, but that takes RAM. So, now the server "leaks" RAM and it can't run efficiently, so the user reboots to get all the RAM back. Blissfully, the server can open AC, etc., but SQL will have to remember your frequent fliers all over again.

Solution, add RAM, definitely more than four. Which means 64-bit.

Summary
(So you don't have to read the 20 posts above)

My recommendation is the Optiplex 990 w/ Solid State Drives. These are prebuilt with Windows 7 Pro.

Give their sales division a call and see if they offer any volume discounts. You are buying 11 computers.

Get 64GB drives if you store data on the server. If not, get the 128GB Drives.

The reason I don't recommend configuring the SSD with Dell is because their 128GB SSD is pretty overpriced. ($314 dollars) You can buy 2 128GB Crucial M4s for the same price. Or get 3 64GB Drives at the current price. (Newegg just had a sale on these last week. $64 for the 64GB model, $128 for for 128 model, I bought 2 64GBs ) If you do end up deploying an image (strongly recommended for 11 computers or else you'll waste a week setting them up), they will get erased anyways so no point in buying from Dell.

Specification and Links:
Optiplex 990 - $754 w/ 250 GB Drive Desktop Slim
Dell Optiplex 990 <- Click Here for Preconfigured Desktop


-Add 100 for 64GB SSD

Video of an Optiplex 990 with SSD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKXCOJ32Zec

David,

Sandeep has given a great summary. As far as your analogy of diabetes vs B12, imagine if it were diabetes vs B2, B3, B6, and B12. That is one wireless does. It adds the B2 through 6. Makes troubleshooting a problem. Once you get rid of wireless, you speed things up, but you get rid of those horrible troubleshoting steps of disconnections, etc. And, hackers. Yes, they can break WPA2 and 30 character passwords.

To echo Sandeep, 4GB is probably all you need UNLESS you run VMs. VMs are great for running a few AC programs on multiple OS to try them first as far as upgrades, etc. In that case a 64-bit OS with 12GB of RAM allows you to run 6 VM OS at a time at 2GBs. Or less at more. Very cool to decide what hardware, RAM, etc. you can run on each. VMs are just too cool, especially on a server.

Speaking of Sushi, I think next weekend, it should be buy an SSD day. Gotta give Indy credit, he has pushed them on here forever.

Just to know, I think Indy intertwines SSD with othe big time network small and big info. I think we are blessed to have Sandeep on here. He knows a ton, but he is all things computers. And, I can connect you with SQL help second to none.

Thank you for the compliments, Bert.

The suggestions that Bert offers above are excellent. SSDs and a wired gigabit network will let you focus more on the medicine and less on the technology. The best systems are the ones you don't notice. They just work, plain and simple.

Someday, I aspire to understand a fraction of what Sandeep and Bert are talking about.

I don't know about Sandeep, but I just use Google.

Google and a little experimentation every now and then.