Home Forums Discussions Problems The infamous EULA

Was chatting with Jon this morning...

11:30:41 AM) JB: i'd like to start a wiki on the EULA and let users rewrite the parts they don't like

Your thoughts?

V.

Uncommonly decent, I'd say!

Wow! That's liberal. That's almost a litte too nice.

Opportunity to have discourse on this matter is most welcome. So, please tell us... how do I get into the Wiki Wiki house? Is there a website? Or do we put our thoughts on this thread? My concerns are simple.

I would like some assurances that AC won't shut down users or use "home invasion" programs to cripple the program from outside. I would like to know that AC doesn't have a "Doomsday" program inserted in it's code.

I would like some assurances that my patient's private medical records cannot be extracted for use in P4P measurement without explicit permission from the user.

I would like to have assurance that there is nothing in the programming codes to allow voyuers and other perverts (i.e. government, insurance company) to be playing peeping Tom.

With these assurances in the EULA, I would be content and happy to endorse this product without reservation and continue to purchase updates and supports (albeit I haven't had the need to do either).

It would be fair to keep in the EULA that support is at AC's discretion. It is fair to say that we are purchasing this "as is". It is fair to say that compromise, corruption, etc can potentially occur as with any programs, but AC is not instrumental in deliberately creating such applications.

Okay, I've posted the EULA on the wiki at http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=End_User_License_Agreement_%28EULA%29

Let's see how this experiment goes...

Jon,
Thanks for the Wiki page. I can't figure out how to edit the page. Is there a Wiki for the Wiki? If I read it correctly, this is a subscription service. Perhaps, specifying that we are puchasing a subscription, subject to annual payment for it's continued use would help clear the air. When AC started, a subscription was not needed (although many of us continued to pay for support and update because it's worth it).

The following paragraph seems harsh and unreasonable:

"Miscellaneous: If you violate any terms of this Agreement, AmazingCharts.com, Inc. can immediately terminate your license to the Program and any services provided by AmazingCharts.com, Inc. or third-party providers. In the event of termination, you must immediately cease all use of the Program and remove all files and data for the Program from your systems. All fees are non-refundable. "

There should be some opportunity for the user to be informed that she/he/they is/are being inappropriate and offensive rather than to just pull the plug.

For example, I'm posting this with some trepidation that this posting may be somehow construed as disruptive and that I may be terminated. Discussion about the medication database with support staff may be interpreted as abusive by a staffer. How does the user know that he/she won't wake up one morning and find a non-functioning program. Knowing that the program will be there tomorrow is very important.

What investigation or controls are there that the program is shut off with some due process? Suggested language change:

"User shall be notified that if their behavior or action is deemed disruptive and an attempt to correct such behavior shall be made. If such diruptive behavior persist, Amazingchart can terminate it's relationship with the user."

Language like that would allow for some semblence of "due process" and I believe would be considered a less arbitrary process.

I don't know what the threshhold for termination is... For example, if we discussed another product on the userboard, would that be considered reason for termination? It may sound ridiculous that this would be considered grounds for termination, but everyone has a different way of looking at things.

I can abide with consequences for actions, but the action need to be specified. I understand not all actions can be specified because there probably is 100,000 reasons for termination of a license, but some parameters would be helpful. Is making more than 250 posts on the User Board grounds for termination (note: I'm at 245)?

Here is my take...please don't come and take my AC. When I buy a car, I have the option of purchasing an upgraded service/warranty package. If I elect not to buy this, I have to pay for any service or repairs which I may incur. But, GM does not come take my car away. I purchased the product and it is mine...as is. When I purchase a software, I have the option of paying a yearly fee and, in return, can upgrade or update as I so desire. For instance, when I bought Norton's I knew I would have to pay an annual fee in order to be able to download additonal virus definitions. If I choose not to update these, Symantic does not come take away my purchased version. I continue to use the product at my own risk with no guarantees it will continue to keep me protected.
When I bought Quicken I paid a fair price. I have not elected to update the software because it is doing everything for me now that I need it to do. No one has dared to threaten to remove my current Quicken version and leave me hanging.
When I purchased my PM software, I paid a fair price. I have been inadvertantly late in the past renewing my license and learned this when I tried to download an update or to call for tech support. In order to update or have support, I must renew my license. Not once, however, did they send out the Software Police to make my version inoperable.
When my Dell laptop crashed I call tech support and, unfortunately my warranty had expired. During my tech support phone travels to India, Pakistan, Puerto Rico and the Phillipines I must admit, I got more than a little hateful with the person on the other end of the line (whether they understood my English explitives or not I cannot say). But, the problem was resolved, my credit card was charged and my laptop was not confiscated.
When I see a patient who is abusive I discuss their ill-mannered behavior with them and ask them to please refrain from being nasty to my staff or me. If they refuse I ask them to find another doctor but I do not sneak into their house at night and take back all the drug samples I gave them.
I simply cannot understand why firstly, tech support cannot be restricted to those users who have elected to renew their license or to pay a reasonable fee for the time spent with them.
Secondly, if you continue to improve and upgrade your program then it seems only right that you should charge a fair price for these improvements. If you fail to improve your program, don't blame me if I choose not to purchase a yearly license allowing me to download these so-called upgrades.
Now, for those scallywags who give you credit card payments, download updates and then reverse the credit card charges, I am not sure what to advise. I certainly would not allow them to download anything again in the future but, I guess it comes with the territory, the same as any medical office being stiffed by a non-paying patient. You take your lumps and move on.
I do think the disclaimers for the content of the codes and medication data base are necessary. As for making people pay for these yearly in order to continue to use your product, I cannot agree. I do not need to update the codes in AC yearly because I have access to them from my PM software. And, in fact, I have regretted every code update which I have downloaded from AC because it automatically overides all the changes and additions I have laboriously made over the years to make the diagnoses and procedures much more understandable and alphabetically useful.
Personally, I love AC, and have recommended it highly to several others but if you threaten me and bully me into paying for things I don't want and don't need (I have never once called for tech support) I will drop AC like a hot pile of horse manure.
Jon, you have created a magnificent EMR and I am sure you will continue to improve it annually. Word of mouth and referrals from satisfied customers will expand your pocketbook far more quickly than threats. Just my opinion. I love you, please don't blackball me.

Leslie

Roy, to Wiki, just type the usual www.amazingcharts.com and then add the forward slash /wiki so www.amazingcharts.com/wiki. This will take you to the site. Click on Open account or whatever it is called and fill it out. I would just use your AC login and password. You then will need to confirm your email address by following the prompts. You are then in, and you can edit or blog or whatever.

Jon, I didn't read the entire EULA over again, just the short version on the Wiki. Most of Leslie's sentiments are mine as well. One thing that I just cannot believe is the following:


As many of us have said, the medication databases CAUSE legal risk. They are horrible. Why has my medication database been downloaded over 70 times if it weren't? The single biggest possible cause of a terrible medical error is the medication database.

Amazing Charts as most of us have stated again and again is a great EMR. You have maneuvered it into a place of its own, and you can consider yourself on par with any of the other major companies in EMR land or otherwise. But, like the other companies, my opinion is that you have to look at your customer base the same way. You simply can't take someone's license away from them. One, I really don't think it would hold up in court and, two; it's just bad business. I don't think the analogy with the patient is the same. The patient has paid for care already used. They have not bought a commodity. To dismiss one because of their actions is altogether different than actually stopping someone from using a program they paid for. No matter what the EULA says, my guess is it is implicitly implied that the exchange of money for the software allows the buyer to keep it and use it. Now updates, upgrades and support is different. You don't have to continue to provide that.

I just spoke with Trend Micro's support today. They were wonderful. I imagine I will speak with them once more over the next year. There are probably many who call them all the time. It's like insurance. It evens out. Now, if I call Trend Micro and am disrespectful and yell at their staff, that is different. They can either take away my support or reimburse the remainder of it. But, they can't take away my user license. They can choose to not sell me a definition subscription the following year.

I appreciate the change to help write the EULA, and I think it's a great gesture, but I think that should be written by the owner of the company. Hopefully, we can meld it somewhat with out comments.

@Leslie, How do you overwrite your databases? I am sorry that happened to you. Usually, installing software over an older version shouldn't overwrite the databases. But, it shouldn't happen anyway logistically. Your AmazingCharts folder with the databases on the clients should be safe as they aren't the ones with the data. If you are running an application on a "server" in a peer to peer, you could run that application on C:\Program Files\Amazing Charts and have the actual database folder in a different location. Either way, you copy the databases or move them to another location prior to installation.

@Roy, I am not sure what the grounds are, but I can tell you it is not 250 posts

Good wiki instructions, Bert. I notice that the link to the wiki that you created doesn't work (apparently because the computer included the period in the above sentence as part of the link).

Here are some working links, to facilitate this process:

Here's a link allowing you to login or create an account, which is the first step in editing the EULA/wiki: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&returnto=Main_Page

Jon's preamble, explaining how and why he is entertaining suggested EULA edits: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=End_User_License_Agreement_%28EULA%29

The community EULA, ripe for editing: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suggested_EULA_edits

Once you have created an account, it is not hard to make changes to the text; it's just about like editing these posts. I made some formatting changes to the EULA today myself, to make it easier to read and review. I also added a link back to this thread, at the bottom of the EULA.

I would like to again express gratitude to Jon for this gesture.

He has given us a unique opportunity to help shape the EULA, and I would like to see the group add some of their comments directly to the document. Probably many of us are hesitant to try our hand at "lawyer-ese", but I would just suggest that you could place your brief, constructive comments after the offending paragraph, and set them apart with asterisks or italics. For example, Roy could insert the following at the end of the document:

I would like some assurances that my patient's private medical records cannot be extracted for use in P4P measurement without explicit permission from the user.

I would usually be glad to "stand at the chalkboard" and transfer a brief synopsis of everyone's comments to the EULA, but I am in a time crunch presently, with cold & flu season, and whatnot. Creating this post alone took quite a bit of time.

This post will slide off the board at some point, however important the topic may be, but comments appended to the wiki would be more durable, I think.

If <0.01% (that's less than 1 in 10,000 users) are problematic enough that he/she need to be exterminated, that leaves 9,999 in 10,000 users that are not problematic enough to be snuffed out.

From the PR perspective, a EULA taking aim at <0.01%, generating questions for the >99.99% remaining doesn't seem particularly effective.

I assume the >99.99% do not have any idea what that <0.01% did to deserve the sanction. If we did know, would we agree that the sanction was deserved?

This reminds me of my 3rd grade class in which one individual didn't perform an assigned task, and the whole class got punished with no PE.

I've been out of the office the last few days with business and Nancy got a really bad stomach bug the other day, so we have both missed out on the begining of this but I just want to say really quickly:

Jon: This is very big of you and thank you for your open approach to this. This is what we always hoped for and thought you and AC were all about. In such a cooperative enviornment we have very high hopes of working thru this very well. Thanks very much.

Now over the next few days we will read all the post others have written and add something meaningful if need be. Thanks again

Paul and Nancy

Brian,

Thanks for your thoughtful post, and the time it took to do it. Thanks also for the links, and you are correct, the period caused the damage in the www.amazingcharts.com/wiki

Forgive me please for taking a slightly different stance. The whole idea of a wiki is to continually improve the document edit by edit, until you have the best information or finished product possible. While that may not happen with the EULA since it is slightly different, I think we should actually edit the document as in the way they do in Wikipedia. In this way, each person who chooses to edit the EULA will be able to edit the newest version. Changes and versions are tracked in wikis. If we are going to simply add our comments after paragraphs, we may as well just copy and paste the EULA on here and add comments. Again, sorry in advance.

Roy, I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of good will based on the numbers. I think we have already seen this when the guest came through the boards one night and expressed her fear of purchasing AC due to the concerns about the EULA. Just two days later, Jon's post was added here, and I would imagine if she read that, it would have been the deciding factor for her.

However, I don't think your analogy with your third grade class is accurate. To be similar to that, Jon would have to take away all of our licenses due to the action of one or two people. I know that I have had to dismiss someone from my practice for abuse of narcotics and found myself writing a much stricter policy based on that which the next patient had to adhere to.

Bert:

I respect your position. I was trying to suggest a possibly less-threatening way of directly handling the wiki, for those of us who feel uncomfortable obliterating paragraphs from a legal document and replacing them with their own verbiage.

A larger problem is that most of us here have no experience with wikis, and probably feel intimated by the thought of trying to edit it, let alone trying to figure out how to track changes.

Respectfully, I don't think it would work well to post the EULA here and have people make changes, because it would be too big and bulky. You would have to scroll forever to read it all. On the wiki, it is much more manageable, and it is just one chalkboard, the same chalkboard, for us all to look at.

However, if people wanted to post offending paragraphs here, followed by their rephrases, *that* would work, and the changes would be easily transferable.

In fact, if anyone wants to do that, I will be on call Saturday, and I will try to find the time to take any changes (or relevant comments) that are posted here, and transfer them (or synopsize them) onto the wiki EULA.

I DID IT.
MY FIRST WIKI EXPERIENCE!!!
IT'S YOUR TURN!!

For Wiki virgins (like I was until this morning) there is an "edit" tab you need to hit. This allows you to edit like a word document. I don't know if there is a way to add color. Also, to make your changes stick, you need to hit the "save" button at the bottom of the page.

Way to go, Roy!

Anybody who wants to see Roy's changes can go to the EULA, by one of the above links. You will see his edited version, but the changes he made may not all be immediately obvious.

Now, select the "History" tab. You can select all the changes that you want to see, then push the button that says "Compare selected versions."

You will see the old version displayed side-by-side with the edited version.

Then come back here and talk about it!

Okay, Roy's in the water, and he says it's fine. Who's next?

Hey, the water is warm (and I did not urinate in it). Anyone else going to join the tub? My fingers are getting shriveled.


E910.4 ACCIDENTAL DROWNING AND SUBMERSION IN BATHTUB, ALONE

(that's sad)

Not sure we are very Wiki savvy here at our office so for starters I am going to post my ideas or concerns here. As some folks know we had a falling out over whether or not our database was healthy or not and according to the answer to that, what if any tech support should we be able to expect to recieve. Things got very heated and not very polite at times. Now like most parties in such a situation, we felt that we were more right and that we were being wronged, and more to the point, being ignored even though we were told to send copies of our database for review and examination. And to AC and Jon's side they have their opposite opinion of what happened here and are certainly entitled to their perspective. Both sides were less than perfect here and many times I have owned up to my 50% of the communication troubles that happeded during this period of time. The same has never been really stated by anyone on the other side of this disagreement.

So, I would ask when we might have an answer, I would then wait that amount of time if not a day or so more, and then call to see if there were any answers to the problem we discovered in the math of the financial section. What I want to convey is that as nervous as we were that we were not sure whether or not we had found a flaw in the program or had a data coruption issue we tried to stay some what calm. But it seemed that when we called back, the data was still not looked at.

A similar thing happened (still trying to address the same issue here mind you) when we were told a bit later on that the problem was probably in the program as much as anything else and so a "fix" was coming. Again we waited the amount of time we were told it would probably take, we would ping or call to ask if "the fix was in" and the like. Like many repairs this took longer than either side would have liked. Again we are not very tech savvy users who are worried about the health of our data and like most people here we had grown attached and even dependent on AC. And isn't that what should happen with a good tool that fits the customer well? So being attached and dependent is really a good thing for both sides. Whether in the theater or medicine, or tech support, part of being a good support person is understanding that until a worried patient or customer has a good answer to their problem they are worried, upset and sometimes not perfect to say the least. Possibly dirty databases are a good reason to be anxious and wanting answers

I as a PM had really grown attached to the financial section of AC because we outsource our billing and so this part of AC became a regular part of my tracking that side of our practice. This feature had been there for a long time and was not some recent beta release either. So we just sort of expected it to work as it appeared it should and at some point the numbers became so obviously squewed it was clear that even without a calculator something was very wrong in the math. So while things were getting very strained, one of the updates added a disclaimer that some of you may now know of that disclaims using AC as a financial tool when one tries to log into this side of the admin features. We saw this as trying to avoid the fix that never came and we were told we could expect. To this day this discaimer is still there and we are still not sure if the coming fix will help us and our data or not. Will our data work correctly when 4.0 comes out? We are still waiting to see the answer to this and if then our data does not work correctly, then what is our recourse? What are our rights as a customer of support services?

But the real problem that occurred was well laid out by my better half. That as AC grew, tech support got very weak and many others beside us have noted that we no longer feel secure in tech support. We feel like the folks who answer the phone don't understand the program half as well as some of the more experienced users do. Furthermore, we wonder if sometimes what is occuring between customer and tech is properly reported back to Jon or other supervisors. So who was making for communication issues? We had an incident much to Jon's credit that he read the transcript of my ping with one of the girls and sent me an email appology for the confusion a few days later, while it was still fresh (1-3 days? hard to remember now). But I was asking a fairly straight question and I recieved less than a straight answer that was very concerning. I bring this up because I feel fairly confident in the fact that this probably happened during many of our attempts to resolve our other issue. The girls on the phone and their way of handling things were making things worse and adding to the tension and confusion. This is an internal problem of Jon's that he recently admitted he is working on here on this board in answer to responses to his recent article. So was this customer getting all bent out of shape over nothing? Was the problem made worse by his own staff? We know that many users no longer call tech support because it just seems like a waste of time. We may as well just talk here amoung ourselves for most problems. Unfortunately none of us are paying Vinny, Bert, Roy or Brian for support and updates; we are paying AC for these things.

In the end we had a "normal" customer service disagreement that got kind of personal and heated. Both sides feel hurt and wronged to some extent and that is understandable. But that should not affect the rights, terms and conditions of both a EULA or a service contract and this is our big problem here and question here. It is safe to say that Nancy and I strongly agree with Leslie and Roy in the fact that when one buys a software one feels that they have bought it, and that it is theirs to have and to hold to create things in and to bring back out things that they have already created in it. The analogies to Intuit and MS are very valid. No matter how much I scream colorful metaphores (Mr Spock, ST IV) at some guy in India, MS or Intuit are not going to ask me to resign my ownership of Word or Quickbooks. No less are they going to restrain me from purchasing the newest version next release date.

What we create in AC is PHI and many patients health records. To be able to hold our patients records as a hostage over our heads to keep us all quiet and from standing up to any or all corporate changes, policies or abuses is totally unacceptable. For any real purposes, what we create in AC is only really usable to most of us average everyday users in it's original AC form. It really becomes nothing more than meaningless ones and zeros to the average user once AC is taken away. It is the same reason why many of us, like us and Roy refuse to use a virtual, ASP only software for either EMR or PM purposes. Basically no program, then no real records to speak of. Dead vendor equals dead records.

The termination clause in the EULA for vague reasons of not abiding by it that includes more vague ideas of personal behavior to be judged by only one party in the contract is just insane. Can we have a clause that says that we can have free updates and support if the girls at support continue to be of little or no use? Such one sided language benefits nobody. It obviously hurts and restrains the party that the clause is intended to restain, but it also paints the other party (AC) as less than fair or considerate and I would hope that this is not how AC cares to promote itself or hav itself be viewed in the public at large. In the end it was my questioning of the marketing of AC verses the reality of AC support that eventually brought things to a head a year ago. There needs to be well laid out protections and rights for the users and owners of the program. Petty personal differences aside, in the end this is our patients PHI that we are both eithically and legally bound to protect and need to be able to produce fairly quickly when needed or requested and no one person or company should be able to put that in jepardy no matter how stained the personal relationship between vendor and end user customer.

Lastly, I personally feel that there are issues in the tech support contract as well. The marketing of the support contract kind of promises quite a lot all while not really promising much of anything at all. To a large extent, besides both sides getting upset and rude with each other was the real problem at the heart of the matter between our office and AC was where does the service agreement leave the customer and what can the customer expect. It is AC's vagueness here all while trying to appear to be something worth purchasing, all while not really being anything at all, that is the problem here. It kind of feels sleezy when one final sees it on both sides. Guardian Angle is the marketed term on the main sales end of the website, but then "we promise nothing of substance" is in the real fine print contained inside the EULA.

Perhaps the EULA needs to be separate from the service agreement. A number of times I and a few others have suggested that perhaps we all need to pay a reasonable amount more in exchange for better support. Intelligent well trained Americans cost real money and it would be unreasonable for us to expect to recieve top quality services from fellow well spoken citizens without being willing to pay for such services. But if we can not turn to the designer of our product in times of need, then who can and should we turn too might I ask? And if we are to sign and pay for a service contract should not that contract properly define both sides rights, terms and conditions? It seems to both of us that this issue is consistantly ignored in an attempt to keep half the topics for discussion off the table in the first place.

At what point is AC marketing itself as a real product for purchase verses some beta like work in progress that is a "use at one's own risk", and not ready for primetime product? If it is not the former, then why is this not extremely clear on one of the first main pages of the sales side of the website, in large never to be missed print, instead of deep within an EULA that everyone knows, most people don't bother to work their way thru? Again it "feels wrong" and not the image that AC proclaims to have for itself. Many, not just us were kind of blown away when all this really came to the surface. Many folks were not even aware that the EULA was contstantly changing as they were downloading and installing their regular updates. So just to recieve and install the updates that one has previously purchased perhaps six month earlier let's say, they must also sign off on new terms and conditions to their EULA. Is this right? Does this seem weird to anyone else besides us? Does CCHIT seem weird to anyone else or are Nancy and I just a dieing breed of enlightened, aware, questioning consumers?

I would like to add one or two more clarifiers here but I really need to leave to get my kids now. Have a great night one and all...
Paul and Nancy

Roy:

That is sick, sad, off-topic, and totally hilarious.

Paul and Nancy,

Do you think the revised (work-in-progress) changes in the EULA meet your needs?

I have had concerns over Guardian Angels as well in which information given to me was not accurate. Jon was kind enough to tell me that editing the medication database will not necessary result in the program shutting down or causing irreparable damages.

The community EULA, ripe for editing: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suggested_EULA_edits

Roy:

Why did you change AmazingCharts to AmazingCharts.com in your 12/5/07 20:10 edit?

(By the way, I think discussion can also take place under the "Discussion" tab of the wiki, if you are logged in).

I was trying to follow what was originally posted on the original EULA. Perhaps AmazingCharts.com is the official name of the company?
I put "user" originally but then after looking at the EULA it refers to the "user" as "you" so I made corresponding changes. Please feel free to change what you think is the correct form. It would be nice to centralize the discussion in one place. At this time, it appears the userboard is where most of the traffic passes through.

BTW, thanks for joining the tub, but please, no vomiting.

Brian,
There reason we are having this discussion today is because of this sad sorry affair. Nancy and I felt an ethical obligation to share what we experienced with the greater AC community and what we had "learned" about the EULA and how it can and would be used. So I tried to describe the basics so everyone could understand what kind of things they may or may not want to see in such a legal agreement. But to Jon's and AC's credit just look: We are having this public excahnge right here and right now. So as I said earlier, Nancy and I have hope that this is going to work out pretty well in the long run.

I'm not sure it is possible but what about something stating that the EULA you sign on with on your original purchase date is the one that is in effect for you and your practice unless yoiu care to and agree to move on to a more recent version? I mention this so that we don't need to continually read and be concerned about changes to the EULA each and every time we take our regular updates. This way the goal post don't constantly keep moving everytime you take the updates you have paid for. Not sure any of us would want this but perhaps older more long term users could be grandfathered in on their old EULA from the original start dates too. This may get clumsy for AC to handle trying to remember 25 different EULA's but it does give the user certain protections that I think most of us were looking for.

I noticed the promise to not insert programs or spyware that can harm or disable our computers which is good, but it does seem to avoid the idea of being able to disable the program itself. I gather that we and many other users would like to see that AC the program itself clearly listed as something that will never be disabled as well.

The termination clause seems better, but still some what vague...What is good cause for termination? It seems that one must always pay their annual renewel fees or that one is terminated. Does this mean we are no longer welcome in AC land in general or are we now banned from legally using the program? Personally I would like to give Jon and AC some form of protection to recieve their appropriate fees for their continual updates and working and de-bugging the program. Such work needs to be respected professionally and economically, but there needs to be a compromise balance to protect the end providers of healthcare who must maintain records for their patients for years after last office visit to be able to continue using the program so as to be able to enable them to have protected access to the records that they created with and in the program.

Again I'm not sure I'm the best person to write this, and would apperciate a group think on this one. Perhaps something about that entitles the user to continue using the last valid version that they properly paid for with the understanding that they are now flying without a net after their last annual payment is up. Like most other software vendors if you want back in, then at some point you need to pay the admission fee. This would seem like a fair balance to protect the interests of AC to their needed fee revenue stream that allows them to continue to function and take care of all of us, while still protecting providers and patients and their access to the medical records created in AC the program.

Thoughts and and input here??? Good work folks.
Paul and Nancy

I must also say the I think I am glad to see that the service agreement is no longer part of the EULA as really to a large extent they are quite separate. But that being said, then just what are we paying for when we pay our annual fees? Are the two concepts of Updates and tech support, Guardian Angel, going to be two separate sets of fees and contracts? And if so then I'm sure I speak for most of us that then obviously we would all like to take a look at this new sevice contract and it's fee structure to see if it fits our needs. Or is Guardian Angel and tech support going the wayside altogether?

On that idea as I suggested a long time ago, perhaps Jon could create a multi-tiered support structure so that highly computer literate folks like Vinny let's say could purchase a minimal base package while more average type users like ourselves could take advantage of a higher quality level of support, all while properly compensating Jon and AC for these various levels of users and support.

Paul and Nancy,
You are reading Roy's revisionist EULA and is in no way reflective of what the EULA is going to be. I just wanted you to know as the "improvements" are my wordsmithing. You probably know this already but I want to make sure there is no misunderstanding. I'm glad you like the changes made so far. I'm hoping others will contribute their ideas.

I'll incorporate your suggestions in the EULA with your permission. (I'm still excited about how the Wiki works).

The community EULA, ripe for editing: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suggested_EULA_edits

Roy,
Permission granted! Thanks for passing our ideas along. I'm still not feeling the Wiki thing too well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certification_Commission_for_Healthcare_Information_Technology

Just thought everyone might be interested in a Wiki page from the original Wiki. But, you may want to head there quickly as the Wild and Wacky Wiki originators have marked it for speedy deletion due to blatant advertising.

Why can't those Wiki guys simply edit out the offensive content instead of killing an otherwise decent thread???

Not sure. While editing Wikis in Wikiland is not that hard, the overall concept there is quite complicated, although most of it runs in the background I suspect.

Can I have some feedback on the EULA revision? I note that out of over one thousand users, the revised EULA has been accessed 88 times. We users are given an opportunity to discuss concerns about the EULA and IMHO, it appears that apathy has overwhelmed the board.

THE FOLLOWING IS FOR YOUR REFERENCE (PROVIDED BY Dr. Brian Cotner).
Here's a link allowing you to login or create an account, which is the first step in editing the EULA/wiki: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Userlogin&returnto=Main_Page

Jon's preamble, explaining how and why he is entertaining suggested EULA edits: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=End_User_License_Agreement_%28EULA%29

The community EULA, ripe for editing: http://www.amazingcharts.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suggested_EULA_edits

I would like to again express gratitude to Jon for this gesture.

Roy, my friend,

If you are looking for feedback, you have come to the wrong place. Feedback has never been a strong point of these boards.

It probably doesn't help that the two top posters aren't much into wiki-ing for a variety of reasons.

I have never understood why more people don't get involved on the boards, et al. Part of it may be that for everyone like me, who feels compelled to reply and offer opinions on many of the threads daily, there are probably 20 to 30 who are content to sit back and read, not that that is such a bad thing.

I, myself, while I think the EULA in its current state is unenforceable at best and downright silly at best feel that the best way to change the EULA is to continue comments to Jon and have him change it. I guess the Wiki is one way to do that.

If there were a way to rail against the insurance companies and the government who pose way more risk to my practice than the EULA ever will, I would wiki away.

As I look down the road, I see Amazing Charts continuing to be my EMR, and I have little or no fear that Jon would ever take it away from me nor do I think he could.

Furthermore, while I do not wish that any "back doors" exist that could hurt my patients, most companies have access to our computers on a daily basis. How many times has Adobe offered me updates? My TrendMicro receives updates daily. And, Microsoft alerts me when patches are ready constantly, although I do have the choice to not install them. And, Microsoft has also shut down down thousands of operating systems with its new Genuine Authenticity program if users are using bogus OS or OEMs that weren't to be licensed to them.

But, I do support your work on the Wiki as far as the EULA goes and, as you know, will do anything to help you or anyone here as far as the continual improvement of AC. Good luck!

Thanks Bert!
Roy

You're welcome. It's good to see your enthusiasm for the Wiki. It's definitely going to be infectious.

By the way, I am on this cool grammar board. I know...boring! But, the guy who runs it, who can write like no one's business, emailed me to tell me they have hundreds of members on the board, but only a select few posts. So, it must not be limited to here.

Rou,

I hate to admit it but I went to the WIKI site and was befuddled. Seemed a lot easier to post concerns here and then have Jon take those into consideration while he revises the EULA.

Leslie, Wacked out on Wiki

I understand. I couldn't figure out how to use the Wiki initially (as I make evident from the initial thread), but I am motivated as the current EULA makes me uncomfortable. I think Bert is right in that AC crippling a user's computer program remotely (especially a program that is vital such as medical records) would make for very bad publicity and legal action. But why would AC want to put these consideration in the EULA? Most of us solo-doctor's have been send down the river without a lifevest at some point in their past and are very sensitive to potential threats, eh?

Roy,
I agree with you that the present EULA seems to portray AC in a way that one would think no company would care to, and in doing so, makes many of us concerned as to why they would. As I've stated previously, such contracts usually not only protect the designer producer of the software product, but they also define a set of rights and protections for the end consumer too. They tend to be some what fair and balanced documents that offer both sides the basic protections that they would both want and need to have a happy comfortable relationship. So it is only natural that many of us are left scratching our heads in light of the last one. We can only hope whatever form the new one takes, it strikes a proper balance for both sides to live in harmony, to live and let live.