Home Forums Server running peer-to-peer??

Hi all,

Another thread alluded to this. Call me a moron, but this is a totally new concept to me. I would like the reliability and RAID of a server, but I like the idea of being able to set up and maintain the network myself. Bert's comments about a server running in a workgroup sounds like a peer-to-peer setup.

Can you provide more info, or direct me to a link or another thread with more details?

Which OS would the server run?

(Will prob upgrade to v6 this weekend. Random comment.)

Thanks. Gene

Sure, the server can be just another computer in the "chain."

You would turn off the DHCP server that gives the addresses to the computers in the LAN, and let probably the router do that function. Any of the windows servers from 2003-2011 can do this.

However, you can also run RAID on many desktops. There are other advantages to a server, see some of Berts other comments.

Gene,

RAID is you friend. When you glance at your server and see that one of the drives is blinking RED after blinking Green for months and months, your heart will skill a beat [or race]. You log onto the machine and it says "Yeah Drive 3 is toast! But, I'm fine, just toss in that new drive sitting in the box up on the shelf and I'll rebuild the array on the fly. Don't forget to buy a new spare -KKTHKSBY " ... or words to that affect.

Workgroups are effectively peer networks since there is central domain controller.

For small practices MS has released a version of the Small Business Server 2011 Essentials that gives you the core functionality, and no requirements for paying per user CALS (up to 25) Costs ~ $700

What does blinking yellow mean?

Depends on the vendor. Could indicate standby drive, could mean a warning condition; parity check fail, bad sectors, spindle RPM, heat.

Could be trying to day "I'm a little sad today, or "I'm having problems in my relationship - don't mess with me", or "Why don't you defrag me like you do the other machines?"

You have to check the documentation .... or tech therapist.

ok, smarty pants.:) I did defrag the server!

Leslie, thank you for laughing along at the joke.

I was brought up on Mark Twain, and so I have a fond appreciation for dry wit, but I have often been called out for missing the dry humor in various posts, so I was trying to politely cover both bases.

To truly knows what the flashing yellow means, you need to know the vendor, the installed controller & drive models, and review the documentation. That said, in return for your good humor I would be glad to check when I am logged onto your server at no charge; call it good humor credit.

You made me smile as well.

Amazon has it for 389.99 look here:
http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-Business-Server-Essentials/dp/B004UJ0UWU/ref=lh_ni_t

You can also download a trial and play with it for 180 days if you are not sure.

Wendell - Bravo! i didn't think to check Amazon, but we buy most commodity items from them these days (hard-drives, cables, parts). We have setup a Prime account that gets us 2 day shipping on most items, and is just a once per year cost of $80 - we have made our money back in the first couple of months.

Yea, Amazon is great. I got our redundant PSU from them. Was surprised to see that they have those. Also, I got SBS 2011 Standard for ~750 from here: http://www.softwaremedia.com/micros...erver-2011-standard-with-5-cals-oem.html

About 400 dollars more and you get Exchange, SharePoint, and Windows Software Update Services (Keeps Your Lan Computers up to date). You could also host a website if you wanted too. But you may have to buy extra CALs, if you have 5 or more computers/users.

Yes, Essentials has Exchange and SharePoint in the cloud.

Cals can drive the cost up significantly. The cost of 20 cals (to put Standard on par with Exchange in this area) would almost be more than the cost of Standard.

For many small offices, Exchange and Sharepoint may not be all that necessary. Web hosting is cool but there are a lot of ways to do that.

I really don't understand why they didn't include Windows Software Update Services in Essentials, other than to drive the business to the Standard. (I guess I do understand ;))

Reviewing my post it seems I am down on Standard. I am not. I think it is a very good program.

Essentials is very stripped down version of Standard. Originally it was based on Windows Home Server adding DHCP control.

I would also like a fax server to be inluded in Essentials also, but agan, they want to push business to the higher vesions.

Keep in mind that for me anyway (WSUS is harder than calculus). Also, it will likely take up 30GB of space if keep on the server.

I thought WSUS was integrated in a simple interface in the SBS 2011 Standard Console.

It may be. I don't have 2011. But, it is also in SBS 2008 SBS console, but the guts of it are in Server Manager. For me, and me only, it is overwhelming. When I turned off the service, lots of bad things happened.

Pretty easy in SBS 2011:

http://blog.ronnypot.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/sbs2011conf15-01.jpg

Sandeep,

It is exactly the same in 2008. Trust me, when you get to the real WSUS, it is much more difficult as to the settings, etc. I can post some pictures of each.

Gene,

Due to either other misinterpreting your question or maybe I am and several hijackings, I don't think you are getting the correct answer.

Let's start with workgroups. Workgroups or Windows for Workgroups is Microsoft's version of a peer to peer. They are virtually the same thing. All computers on the network sharing the same workgroup name and using the same subnet each connect to each other and share common resources. They do not have a central computer nor do they have single sign-on or the ability to authenticate against a server. In the truest sense of the word, they would all connect via crossover cables, but now they use hubs or switches. The term "main computer" made popular by AC users on a peer to peer as the computer with the main database is just that, a computer in a workgroup with the database.

There are then client/servers. A client/server is a group of computers which connect through a switch but obtain all their resources from a central server. It is named such because there is an obvious computer which is better than the rest and contains all of the data whether databases or files for the network.

When using this type of configuration, you are essentially still in a workgroup environment. You have not elevated the server to a domain. Client computers do not have to authenticate against the server. Active Directory does not exist and therefore user accounts are not made. There is no AD to house security settings. Group policy is not able to be used. DHCP, however, can be used and should be used in any setting where you can, e.g. on client computers which can accept DHCP, which all of them do. http://support.microsoft.com/kb/323416

When most people mention client/server they are basically saying and assuming the setup above, but with the server running a domain. All clients are on the domain and function the way the domain is set up. Servers with a domain (SBS has only one) others can have many will, by definition, have certain names in the network that must be used in order for the network to run properly. You will have the domain name, e.g. riverview, the domain address, e.g. riverviewpediatrics.org, client names such as Triage, fully-qualified-domain-names or FQDNs which takes the client name and the private domain and puts them together for triage.riverview.local. It will also provide DNS, which will be the all import system for Domain Name Server. DNS is your best friend and your worst enemy and the main reason why DHCP works best. If you use DHCP from the server (which you should if you use it) it should NOT be on at your router. The things you can do with a server and a domain are ten to thirty times more than with a non-domain server. (the server hardware has nothing to do with whether it's a domain or not) it is just if you have elevated the OS to domain status. Usually, during the setup, it will set up the domain, but you do not have to run a domain.

A server on a domain is much more secure than a workgroup and allows you to control who gets to do what at the most granular level. Active Directory allows you to control any user. You can put users into different groupings so that Group policy may only act on them. You may not want your nurse or receptionist to use crazy desktops so you set that up while others are free to do so.

Now back to your question. How to set up a workgroup with a server. Basically, you simply set up a workgroup with one of the machines being a server-grade computer. They would all run through the swtich, but you would put all data including AC's on the server. You would have all of the advantages of a server computer as far as much faster hardware and the ability to set up better RAID with hardware controllers.

For the OS, you would use Server OS such as Windows 2003 or 2008 or, my preference, SBS 2008. Not only will you have more control, when you do decide to move to a domain, you already have the server OS.

What is missed in all of these questions is those of us who use Client/Server domain setups don't necessarily do so because AC has to run on them. It's just that they allow you to do MUCH more with your network for other things. Servers allow you to centralize many things such as Antivirus and Windows updates. It gives you day to day reports on the server and the LAN as well as allows easier backups.

Addendum: These are concepts that took me months to understand, because no one sat down and explained them to me. The two big terms are Active Directory http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2008/en/us/ad-main.aspx and DNS. Active Directory was patented back in early 2000 and was a major breakthrough for IT Administrators. Think of a civil engineer required to manage 20 cities. Every time a new city was established she would have to build a new road to that city, do a census and make an entirely new directory. (domain) This, of course, would take lots of work and time. Now give her Active Engineering. She types in the name of the city "New City." DHCP gives her an IP address and the all important DNS, which points it to the central city in seconds. So, now all the info and census and small streets and where the schools are can be seen and managed in the one central location. DNS is the most important thing in networking and the least understood and most screwed up. My network guru always answers my questions with DNS, DNS, DNS... just like the five year old with abdominal pain is constipation, constipation, constipation... DNS allows you to get to websites, for email to work AND for computers on a network to contact the server. In a peer-to-peer, all computers would have DNS point to the ISP. In a domain, the domain name server would point to the server and the server has the DNS of the ISP and forwards the computers to the ISP. With five computers, setting up static IPs is easy, with 100 you want the server to set those up.

Because of active directory and DNS, you can use group policy to virtually set up hundreds of settings. Want to make passwords five letters, fine; eight letters with mixed case, fine. Don't want your users to be able to restart or shut down their computers, done. It's like a kid in a candy store.

Friday a really cool feature came up. My MA got a new cell phone. There should be a point where you can tell Exchange to not require security settings (on the phone). If you can't, then the phone has to have ridiculous passwords to access email. Tried to fix the phone for an hour. Went into Exchange (connected to AD) and found the setting for allowing Exchange to allow her in without security settings). Just her.

Anyway, the key here, no one is wrong, BECAUSE, the questions and discussions are based on three different things:

1. Can you run AC successfully on a peer-to-peer with normal workstation hardway and do it successfully and safely? Good discussion, but my answer is a resounding yes.

2. Can you use a server in a client/server environment, thereby giving you a better server with more options, increased security and a MILD increase in speed? Yes. (This is the scenario most overlook)

3. Is a domain better than peer-to-peer in an overall network environment and, therefore, any app or database will function better and more securely? Yes. Is it necessary? Definitely not.

So, all of these questions deserve their own thread.

That is a work of art, Bert. Required reading for anyone contemplating this issue.

Are you serious, Jon? Of course, I added some and probably ruined it.

Absolutely serious. I really think it is excellent.
I spend so much time being sarcastic that no one believes me when I am being honest.

That's exactly right, lol.

I think you need to add at the end when you are being serious. (in a situation where you could be misread)

Then again there are times when I don't want to know.

Wow! I have been demoted to three stars. That hurts.

Personally, I find the stars to be kind of silly.

I always thought you were the one who decided the number of stars???

No anyone can. But, once decided, they can't be changed. I am going to ask Sir Duke, my Forums on Forums confidant how that can be changed. I can't even get to mine as an admin.

You can, though. See if you can get me to at least four.

I think I may also figure out how to make the edit reason blank by default. That is used incorrectly. It is supposed to be used to tell people why you made a change that really affected your post.

I just hit your profile with a 5 star, Bert. You are in rare form tonight.

Wow. Jon just made it 3 to 4. I'm am so happy again. I was becoming depressed.

Another milestone coming soon. Jon is going to crack the top 10 with 16 more posts. And less than 2 years on the board. Wow.

I used to like him until he called Johns Hopkins "that East Baltimore school". I went to JHU undergrad. Those Maryland guys had better watch out for "the Fighting Bluejays".

Undergrad....totally different story. And "acceptable".

Surely that was a mistake, John.

John, sarcastic posts don't count toward the Top Ten list. The way I have it figured, Jon has about 312 posts.

I guess I'm grateful that my whiney posts counted then!

Looks like now I will never make the top 10.

Don't fret. For every ten posts, at least one doesn't drip with sarcasm. That should still get you into the top 10 before Indy.

Just kidding of course.

Glad to see I'm not getting lumped into the same crowd as JBS. Also going to guess that my going to that fine trade school in Annapolis MD isn't getting me any points.

No, but you can go to Jon's Maryland group.

Bert, I think there is a typo here? Please expand? This is a really great post, and I want to be sure I understand.

Thanks David for catching that. It changes the whole meaning. It should be "a group of computers."

I think it is important to understand that no matter if one is a computer newbie or the highest techie, I think that one thinks of client/server setups as being a domain. I think that should not be the case and one should make it clear what they are referring to.

Nothing but respect for boat school and its grads here.


See, Bert...I told you SOMEONE would read the whole thing.