Home Forums Discussions Problems HELP with backing up

I just migrated from version 3 to version 5 and I just learned the hard way about backing up. Before, I used a simple program to backup the AC folder to an external hard drive and take it home. If I was gone, my nurses could it. So simple.

Now I realize the backup program will not back up because it says the MDF and LDF files are in use by the SQL server.

IS there an easier way to make it easier? I also want to use crashplan to backup online.

1. one way i could think was to back up using amazing utilities so it creates an enc file in the same folder and on my external hard drive for data only. Then I use my backup program to back up every thing else(imports). If I use amazing backup for everything, it takes 45 minutes to an hour just to back up the whole thing every day.I have to do these 2 steps just to save time. Then to back up to crashplan, I have to back up enf file and imports every day. Multiple steps.

2. another way I found out was to go into SQL server management and turn off sql server. BAck up to external drive, then turn sql server back on again. But then I will have problems backing up to crashplan if I have to put the sql sevrer back up.

Anyone have any other ideas on how to make this simple as possible?

I use 2 external drives and rotate them using the Amazing Backup Utility let run at night make sure to include the images and imported items.

I was going to do this way but it has 2 problems.
1. I have a huge imported item folder and it take 45 minutes to an hour to back up each night

I think Neomatrix1217 was going with that you tell it to backup x 1 hour and leave, rotate drive the next day - that makes you one day behind, but I think it is amazing that we worry so much - if your office burns down what backup is there for paper files???

@tvo7

When I get a chance tomorrow, I will try to give you some pointers.

tvo, backing-up is an EMR-related issue that seems to evoke a broad range of strong opinions. I spent the first year or so using AC with a suboptimal back-up "regimen", but I used the time to listen to Bert and others (at the 2010 ACUC), reading here (some LONG threads), and elsewhere about the options. I think what I do works for me, and it is posted below. You may want something completely different.
Some people think that this is an overblown issue (see Stephen above), but others want back-ups in multiple physical places, on-line, with many accessible versions over a period of weeks or months, able to withstand computer crashes, power outages, flood, fire, and nuclear holocaust. Again, you need to decide what is comfortable for you. Your hardware is a factor as well; if you have server(s) with RAID you will look at this differently than if you just have a simple peer-to-peer set-up like we do. The speed of your internet connection may also be a factor.

On the other hand everyone MUST have some back-up system. Decide what works for your comfort level.

Then consider the following:
What to back-up: For AC this really means two things: the AC enc file (which is small) and the Imported Items file (which might be much bigger; ours is 27Gb). That makes online back-up of your II file much more challenging. You also want to make a back-up (an image) of your entire drive.

Where to back-up: We want copies of the above on at least two computers in our office, on a secure external hard drive separate from the server, and online.

For hardware, we purchased an ioSafe Solo Pro hard drive which is water-proof and fire-proof. No additional software is needed to create an image of our server hard drive, and periodic copies of the imported items folder. Older versions of the II folder are automatically deleted, so we keep about 10 of them. I think the likelihood of corruption of those files is relatively small and I see little need to keep months of old versions. AC automatically backs-up to this drive. So in the office, rapidly accessible is a full version of the server, as well as of AC and its data. In case of drive or other issues on the server, this is fairly quickly copied and another computer in the office is quickly put into action. If there is a fire or flood, it may take some time to get to the drive, but the data is there if that proves to be the fastest way to get up and running.

We use the back-up that comes with AC to make a copy to two places. We do NOT use it to back up II. One copy goes to another computer on the network; if the server goes down that version of the program is available immediately. Another goes to the external hard drive above. Both are set to automatically delete files after 10 days. Yes, AC automatically backs-up a copy of the enc file right to the AC folder; no one seems to know why it does that or what value it provides. If you choose, you can also use AC to do a daily back-up to a zip drive you carry home with you at night.

Finally, we use Jungle Disk. This has a somewhat annoying interface/access, but once set-up works well. We do a daily back-up of the enc file, and of the II file. The beauty of this program (aside from the fact that it is pretty cheap) is that it uses a process called deduplication. I do not understand how it works at all (Bert, feel free to jump in) but it allows repeated back-up of large files by only identifying changed files, leading to a major speed-up of the process. So it took 9 hours to back-up my 27Gb II file the first time, but daily runs are only two minutes (less than the full run of the far smaller enc files).

I've also noticed too that backing up Imported Items folder takes forever...
I use 2 external drives however I backup AC databases and Imported Items folder separate. First I backup AC databases which usually takes only about 3 minutes or so (SQL server has to be stopped for that) and then on the next drive I backup Imported Items and since it takes long time I leave it in the office overnight.
I have also 2 automatic backups set up for the complete AC folder:
One with Mirra backup server located on site and second remote with MozyPro(seems that those backups are not affected by SQL server runing or not).

Thanks for all your replies. This is how I am going to set it up.
1. AC backup - puts ENC in backup folder and on external hardrive. Back up everything except imported items folder.
2. Backup software to back up imported items folder to external hard drive
3. Rotate 2 external drives so there is always one st home.
4. crashplan to back up imported folder on server and backup folder on server. Set it it to run every night.

I miss the days of version 3 when I can plug in ext hard drive, run back up, copies everything inside AC folder to external hard drive, 5-10 minutes later, done.


Darius - mozypro can back up with sql server still running? I have read from others that online backup programs won't backup DB with sql server still running.

Does anyone know if crashplan can back up while sql serever is still running?

Thanks JBS for the kudos. And, yes, there is no way to stay out of this one. And, there are way too many issues above to not comment or try to help.

As you can tell, Jon, has a very good and well thought out backup plan, and you also never heard him talk about turning off SQL Server. You also never heard him talk about something taking an hour. Here is some info point by point that I hope helps:

1. You should NEVER have to turn off SQL Server to do your backups. If you do, then your backup software is just not good enough. And, you do NOT have to turn them off to run AC. If you did, Jon (the other Jon) would have built that in to the program.

2. Separate point but pertaining to above. There will always be a P2P vs Client/Server debate on here. But, I think the difference between AC's efficiency is negligible compared with what you are forced to do when you are running a server. Again, Jon, has overcome that as he has been a long time user and is very computer savvy. You can't use $49.00 backup software and expect it to back up SQL properly.

3. A little about SQL Server. SQL Server consists of SYSTEM databases: Master, Model, MSDB, Temp, etc. Programs which use SQL as a database install/attach to SQL and form an instance. So, in your services on your PC, you will see SQL Server (AMAZINGCHRTS). That is one instance. You may have two or ten depending on how many applications are using it. A server OS will have several intrinsic programs using it as well. The AC instance contains three USER databases: Amazing Charts, Meds, and Codes. These are user databases and aren't running when no one is using them. AC's backup backs up these and a few other folders needed to restore the instance. The SQL Server engine which works with AC and other instances does run constantly. For SQL backups and all of its instances to be consistent data on the drive, some type of program must do this. SQL Server has its own program to back up its data, but this is really not necessary. If you use a program that doesn't get all worked up about .mdf and .ldf in the SYSTEM databases, you will likely get a decent back up of your AC folder with the user datbases.

4. What to use? Well, first, if you are using non-server OS, you will not be able to get backup software that will work as well. CAVEAT: That is not to say you can't. I can't look at all of them. But, a quick look at Acronis (one of the industry standards), shows client backup software to be anyway from $45.00 to $95.00 while server backup software is $950.00. The latter is all you need to back up SQL as it is is an image and backs up as a snapshot. It is actually extremely good software. If you want the standalone SQL Server backup so you can back up AC and SQL Server every minute (takes < 1 second to make these backups), it will only set you back about $700.00. I am not recommending these, but just giving a perspective.

5. As far as .enc file. Basically, as Jon said, you HAVE to back up II separately. If you are getting away with it now, that's great. Do it at night, and one hour is no big deal. My server backups take three hours.

6. Again, as I always say, general to specific. Forget everything and just start with an entire backup of your computer. Every night. The whole thing. And, back up to multiple hard drives. Now, here is something that is not coming up in these discussions. If you have any version of WIN7, you already have an extremely good back up program which utilizes VSS. It will make complete backups as well as set you up with one System State Full Metal Backup. It is simplete to set up, will find any of your backup destinations and uses Microsoft's block technology to save on space. It will also show you how much space you have left on your drives.

7. VSS. Volume Shadow Service produces Volume Shadow Copies. Many applications and backup programs are compatible with VSS. When you backup program starts, VSS comes on and goes to various programs like Oracle and SQL, etc. and basically commands it to stop and "commit" its data to the hard drive. And, it is serious. The apps will listen to it, and using VSS writers, then write all of their data into frozen data which is then backed by your program. The nice thing about VSS is it creates retore points AND (bonus) previous versions. So you may have 30 previous versions of AC's folder and not even know it. It does this with many folders. I believe XP Pro used it but not to the extent that WIN7 does.

8. Strategies to backups. There are as many strategies to backing up data as there are users on the board. Personally, I got tired of the Grandfather/Father/Son backup strategy along time ago. Yes, I overdo it, but I like mystem. Ten external eSATA drives with multiple full backups and weekly backups to two RAID5 NASs in the basement. I do three small backups to one of the drives manually. Yes, I take home a backup weekly, but, frankly, I forget most of the time. Which is why I use JungleDisk online, which is the best online backup.

9. Deduplication vs Incremental vs Differential. Incremental takes all you changed files and makes a backup. If you have 20 of them, then all 20 have to work plus your original full backup for it to work. A differential takes longer but is safer as on any given day you can just use that day's differential and combine it with the full backup. But, these two are archaic and use up way too much bandwidth compared with deduplication, which as its name implies, doesn't duplicate anything. So, if you back up, say, email. If you sent out the same email to 20 staff, an incremental backup would look at that and say everything was different and back it all up. A deduplication system would say, yes, it is all different, but why back up all twenty. We'll just do one. And, even more fascinating, if you back something up that already exists, it will just set up a point to that other file or sub file. Say, you have the first paragraph of the Gettysburg address backed up. If you then back up the entire version, it will leave out the first paragraph and just point to the other file. So, if on Monday, you started with a 10GB backup, on Tuesday what would have been 100MBs, it may only back up 20MBs. But, when you look at Tuesday's backup, it will appear to be a 1.1GB full backup and would install as one backup.

10. The best backup program is Backup Assist.

11. It only works on servers. It takes Microsoft's backup software and puts it on steroids.

12. Because it works with Microsoft's VSS writers, it will back up SQL, but if you want the full SQL Server backup, you will need to purchase the license. It does standalone SQL Server backups, which, again, can be daily to one minute. Not to get technical, but the one minute backups are called Transaction Log backups or T-logs. So, any changes are not backed up as physical files but only as logs like notepads. Then for a restore, it takes the logs and points to the data.

13. I agree with Steven. It is 10,000 times more likely for your hard drive to crash, your data to become corrupt or do what I do, screw around with the server too much and crash it, than for a flood or a fire. Besides, if my office burns down, I will likely sit down and cry for days before I even look for my offsite backup.

Do at least backups ten deep. It is mre likely you will lose a file that you need to go back and get than you will just need a complete restore. Remember, the most likely thing to fail in a computer is the hard drive. And, where are your backups? On hard drives.

@tvo7 Most online backups will back up your user databases.

I would consider making your backup strategy a little more robust.

If I may add a point.

14. BE SURE TO TEST YOUR BACKUPS. When I say test, that means grab another computer and try to restore your backup to that computer. When you are done, you should have two computers with identical data on them and it should be acceptable to swap one out with the other. For example, I restored our domain controller to another machine, shut down the production domain controller, started up the one I restored, and our network kept on going like nothing ever happened. Results like those should be your goal.

If you have never tried restoring a backup you have made, then you have no proof that it works, nor will you know what you are doing when D-day arrives.

JamesNT

I was about to say the same thing, lol.

Back up --> Confirm --> Restore.

Also, sit down with a little pad and paper. Yes, paper.

Look at your computer and write down everything you could afford to lose. Can you afford to lose your billing? Your accounts receivables? When people call in on their EOBs and swear they are all paid up, what are you going to do. Maybe that is just a given, but everytime there is a backup thread, it seems to revolve soley around AC. Yes, mission criticial, but so are a lot of other things that get backed up unless you do a full backup.

But James is right. I can't believe he said the exact same thing. You can't test a backup on your production "main computer." Restore on VM or "sandbox." Personlly, I find using a sandbox computer more the same.

Remember, too, what you do when you set up a computer. Forget the Microsoft Windows Server 2008 and let's look at a Vostro. Unfortunately, they pretty much come with the OS on it. I won't buy any computer that the manufacturer won't give me the complete install disk. Not a retore disk. The install disk. I get to the point of purchase, ask for the install disk, they say, oh no, can't be done. I say see ya. All of a sudden it can be done.

You want to set up your drive or drives with partitions that separate your OS and data. To be sure, this is easy. It really is. It's easier than installing AC. The advantage of this is when you do backups at night while backing up the whole computer has its advantages (bare metal restore), if you have your data, you can always reinstall your OS.

Right James?

tvo7
Yes, MozyPro works with SQL server runing.

To be sure, though, most online backups will back up your data while SQL is running, will back up your user databases, but they aren't going to back up the SQL Server engine with the system databases.

As always Bert is right.
I use MozyPro to back up only entire AC folder.
How MozyPro compares with JungleDisk ?

http://sporkmarketing.com/blog/195/mozypro-vs-jungle-disk-comparison-review/

http://www.thetechnologystudio.co.u...web-server-backup-mozypro-vs-jungledisk/

http://www.kwaree.com/blog/2009/08/05/goodbye-mozypro-and-hello-jungle-disk/

These should help. I did look for more and some, truthfully, weren't as favorable for JD, but the articles weren't as good. Some said, JD is the best, but...

And, I guess I am not always right. It states that both Mozy Pro and Jungle Disk use VSS to backup SQL Servers. I guess that is with the desktop software. I will have to look at mine when it starts and see if VSS starts.

Thank you Bert.
Looks like it is time to switch to Jungle Disk.

I think so. You should look into the Jungle Disk Pro. Sounds like you can see your files from any web browser. I think the big advantage is using it from multiple PCs.

I like your Avatar!

Bert : Have you heard anything about crashplan?


I am worried about amazcon cloud since something just happened recently with them that was all over the news. Either it went down or got hacked.

I am using Crashplan after I became disappointed with Mozy. So far I am pleased.

It does look interesting. I had no idea what you were referring to earlier.

I Googled Amazon and Jungle Disk and couldn't find the hacking. Please send me a link.

Also, Rackspace (used by AC I think) has bought out Amazon at least with JD, again, I have read. Or you get choices.

Bert, I can't remember exactly where I saw the original reference about Amazon, but I saw this on HIStalk:

From Professor Paul MD: ?Re: Amazon cloud downtime. For those who didn?t know, their northern Virginia data center that hosts EC2 and RDS services went down hard for 24 hours last week and didn?t recover all volumes until late Sunday. A small company that apparently does ECG monitoring repeatedly begged for help on Amazon?s public online forum, bringing up good points on what to consider when hosting health apps on the cloud."

http://histalk2.com/2011/04/26/news-42711/

Bert,

Yes. If you have your data, then in many cases you can just restore the OS and just copy the data back on if needed. For example, with AC all you would have to do is copy the SQL Server database files back into the folder they should be in after re-installing AC. The only problem you'll have there is getting your settings back in place (i.e. icons on the desktop, etc., etc.).

For some situations, this will not be true. For example, Exchange Servers and Domain controllers. But that is another discussion.

Like yourself, I certainly make sure I have the install CD for Windows or at least an ISO file. This restore CD bull hockey can jump off a cliff.
JamesNT

"A small company that apparently does ECG monitoring repeatedly begged for help on Amazon?s public online forum, bringing up good points on what to consider when hosting health apps on the cloud."

From the comments:

Someone immediately questioned why they would be running a mission-critical life-or-death system on the cloud, to which the original poster answered, ?Well, it is supposed to be reliable.? One of several uncharitable responses was:

If you were smart, you would have a disaster recovery plan for just this kind of thing. Judging from your lack of said preparations, you figured the cloud never goes down, and got greedy by not wanting to spend money on hot standby machines on a different infrastructure. Good going.....

Bert: I do think the last post was a bit harsh, but really, I have little sympathy for someone who keeps all their data online. That should be supplemental backup not your main backup.

Bert, I do not know all the details, but my initial reaction on reading about this was the same as yours.
Many people are betting their whole record system on the reliability of the cloud (e.g. Practice Fusion) and that is neither a supplemental or a main backup...it is the original record.

You are completely right.