Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Multiple backups, multiple places

http://www.box.net/shared/static/8xjr1vkao2.jpg

This is an actual picture.

I think the theory was that if we were backing up the entire active drive that includes the backup folder it was unnecessary, but you are right... it is free and easy.

I have not felt an overwhelming concern to encrypt data that never moved out of the secure server room, figuring physical security would suffice. But, I appreciate the suggestion. and will keep it in mind.

I agree on the encryption. I only encrypt mine when I take it home. The software I use automatically encrypts it, but bear in mind when you make the key, if you forget the password, that's it.

It's a little like Gandalf outside of the mountain trying to remember the password.

Bert - that image is stuck in my mind - now you're going to have to break out the hat and staff!

It was a beautiful image. But, here is a better one. After saving the image, I decided I needed to change one of the paths. I tried and tried. The damn browse button wouldn't work. I couldn't put in the UNC. Then I realized, duh, you're trying to change the image, not the program. I guess I am either stupid or I have really good resolution.

Bert - I meant the image of Bert, staff in hand, standing in front of the Server [the mountain] trying to remember his encryption password! Next year you have to bring the staff and hat - capes optional.

David,

Let me know how this works. I am guessing I have the same backup program as you on SBS 2008. Maybe not. But, it has a lot of limitations, first being where you can back up. It generally can't back up to a networked location. Maybe the second server is connected directly. Plus, one of the strangest things about it, and this is what it does with mine, is how it "takes over" the media. For instance, I back up to a 1TB external drive. Before Windows Backup gets involved, you can see the drive, the drive letter, and the size of the drive. You can, of course, open it and view its contents. When you run Windows Backup, it looks for possible places to back up. It doesn't seem as if it would select your second server. If it works, I don't doubt you. Now, it finds my eSATA drive and asks me if I want to select that. It finds one other as well. These are all directly connected via USB. I don't even think you can use an eSATA connector. As soon as you select it, it formats it and makes it unusable for anything but backups. It's as if it is turned into stone. You can't open it. You can't see how much data is inside it. You can't even view your backups directly.

So, I guess I am wondering if it is doing the same thing to your server. I don't see how it could, but it would have to just consume it.

I forwarded this to my IT guys for what I hope will be a more in-depth answer than I can give. I'll post the reply.

Thanks David,

I don't mean to indicate you are wrong. It just doesn't correlate with my experience. He are two articles. One is a bit out dated but still on target.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc770266(WS.10).aspx

It's good to read the comments by ITs at the bottom. I hope your ITs aren't as critical, and maybe there have been improvements in two years. I do know I get a critical error daily stating it failed to back up Exchange. It also has a difficult time with drive letters. One comment was completely wrong when it stated it can't restore at the file level. It certainly can. It can't back up at the granular level of files and folders (which is silly), but I guess backing up just volumes isn't a terrible thing. Makes it rather straightforward.

http://www.wbadmin.info/articles/how-does-windows-server-2008-backup-work.html

Wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong. We'll see.

BTW, just remember what happened to Gandalf in the Mines of Moria AFTER he figured the password....

SPOILERS AHEAD!

Yes, but he came back from that fall.

AND, I don't think he came up with the password. It was one of the newbies.

Well, can say that the native Windows server 2008 backup does seem to be working over the network, and seems to be doing well with no weirdness so far. We are backing up the entire volume to the second server every 30 minutes, and it restores well with no noticeable program slowing during the backup process. There seem to be some restore issues to be worked out with Jungle Disk, but once that is straightened out we will probably discontinue the AC backup all together.

http://www.wbadmin.info/articles/how-does-windows-server-2008-backup-work.html

This is a great article. I think the fact that it can't back up to NAS and can't back up network locations confused me a bit. Basically, when you set it up, it will show you what you can back up to. I have learned to like it a lot. But, ironically, I use Backup Assist and it is mentioned on the last line. Basically, Backup Assist can always take Windows Backups whether Image or ntBackup and put them on some serious steroids.

David,

I have two pieces of advice that I hope doesn't offend anyone. Just something to think about. One is more of a question.

I use Backup Assist to do T-SQL backups of SQL. This allows a backup designed to back up SQL to back it up every minute if needed. I do back it up every one hour. The backups take less than 10 seconds. A blink of an eye.

I have to ask you why you are backing up your server every hour. That just seems like overkill. Just a question.

My other piece of advice. I am begging you, literally begging to keep your local backups as well as your online. There are just too many intangibles with a backup that is online on Amazon to trust your entire system to.

Last things first...
Keeping the local backups is easy enough, and I think I agree. I am backing up to a second local server, but running AC backup takes minimal effort. I had been trusting the backup to the second server, but you are correct that there are always unknowns. The Alaska fire service guys in discussing equipment say "two is one, and one is none." Keeping it is easy.

As to the exact why of backing up the volume, I'd ask my IT guys. Since little changes on the volume other than AC it goes quickly.

Beyond that, I have to study what you have written. My understanding of Windows and networking is fairly shallow... I have spent my time as a Mac guy... So you lose me quickly. Thanks you for the input.

David,

I guess it is like everything in medicine or life. Risks and benefits. Pros and cons. I suppose is the risk (a backup causing an issue especially during a time that a database is in use) has to be weighed against how much data do you want to risk losing. For me, a solo practitioner, lose eight to ten notes isn't a big deal. In a practice with eight providers, that would be 80. T-SQL database backups are transactional back up of a SQL database. They are backing up the log files, which is why you see the .mdf and .ldf files in AC. The way SQL backs up in Backup Assist is every morning it takes a Full backup of everything, so it takes a backup of AmazingCharts.mdf and .ldf, AmazingMeds.mdf and .ldf and AmazingCodes.mdf and .ldf, along with the Master.mdf, MSDB.mdf and Model.mdf and the log files for them. The transactionals simply take backups of the log entries of the data. So even if you save 3Mbs to the AC database, it will only take a backup that says "oh you backed up that 3Mb data file." Over my head too.

Okay this is a rather long thread and i read through it but I have a couple questions.

1. Is it possible that when we back up scheduled, it doesn't automatically put it in the ac/backup folder? as it is, I back it up to a different partition and a completely different drive. the AC folder is on the main C: drive so if the computer crashes, that is going to be lost anyway. The problem is that every day it makes a new dated back up file so the GB's get used up pretty quickly after a while, unless you go in and delete files every week.

2. On this thread why are people backing up their whole system? You don't need to back up apps and stuff, you have the disks or ways to get the programs again. Just back up data. back up your AC backup files, not the AC program folder every night. You don't need to back up MS word or excel, just the documents, pictures, pdf's etc. This will save you time and headaches!

3. Are people using both the AC backup and something like carbonite or jungle disk? IS there any extra advantage to using the AC back up system?

I guess it was two questions and one comment.

1. AC always puts a copy of the backup ".enc" file in its own folder, even if you back up remote. I don't know why, but you are correct, it really bloats the AC folder. You can use the Advanced Options in Amazing Utilities to clean out some old backups from the AC folder manually.

2. I don't backup my whole AC folder, just create an .enc file including Imported Items. If you have a crash, reinstall AC, then use "Restore" in the AC folder plus your latest .enc file to recreate AC. I guess some will backup their entire computer in case they want to do a bare metal re-install, since this is an option with the server OSs and Win 7 Pro.

3. I use Jungle Disk to backup the .enc files off site, in case my entire office burns down, I guess, and I lose my in-office backup.

Ketan, here we go again, lol. But, this is more about best practices. Your method works great for a personal computer, but it far short-sighted in a business environment. Some people on here have over 7 years worth of data on their servers. I don't know how to say it any clearer, but this is Mission Critical data and I am not going to trust it to a company who can't get the mixed cases spell check to work.

It has always amazed me that everyone on here (well maybe not everyone) seems to have one program. Amazing Charts. No one has Medisoft or Lytec. No one has Imported Items separate from their .enc file. No one has an intranet. No one has in house email. No one seems to have at least 100 or more important documents.

When you back up your entire server or pseudo-server, you know that EVERYTHING that is important to your practice is backed up. You can restore it or you can go into and get it or whatever. Anything else is gravy. I call them modular backups.

For instance, my server gets backed up twice, not once to an external drive. The following day same thing but to a different drive. What good is a backup if the drive you backed up to died. Also, every day all data (which includes all of the above because it backs up the data drive) is backed up to Jungle Disk.

Now, everything I need as far as AC is backed up three times for one year. Now, I do what you call the non-headache backups. I decide it is time to go home. I click on AC backup, I click on eMedware backup and I click on the F.A.P. (all of my Imported Items) backup. Ten minutes later my big three are backed up. Of course, if my billing software becomes corrupted, I will restore from the modular backup. 30 seconds. Restored. But, human nature being what it is, I get tired or busy and forget to back up the actual eMedware (modular backup) for two days. Now I am three days behind. But, no fears, I have at least three other backups.

Now here is what else is important. It is called granularity. My eMedware (billing) backup is similar to AC's. It is condensed and encrypted into one file. It is only restoreable. I can't open it and look at it. But, my other backups, allow me to actually open the folder. To actually go in and grab the file I need.

Here is a great example of how you would lose sleep over not having good backups. As you know, being in the post about spell check, Avery is trying to incorporate his 10,000 medical words into spell check. I have tried to show him a "possible" way to put them in userdic.tlx. That may take a lot of time to do. This file would be in the AC folder but not backed up by AC backup (I don't thin -- apologies if it is).

I think some of this as John sort of alludes to is the culture of the server. You won't find one IT person out there that will not recommend an entire server backup or at least the data portion every night. It's just what those with servers do. We think of it that way.

Now, you are correct about applications. That is exactly why I just said what I did. Whole server vs data. As long as I am backing up my data and Jungle Disk is backing up the data, I can always reinstall the OS and all my applications and then my data. But, that is not only an all day job. It means completely redoing Active Directory. Completely setting up the domain. Every setting is lost. To me, spending two days redoing my server vs going to SBS Console, clicking on backups, clicking on restore, choosing backup from 11/14/2010, clicking restore, going to Burger King and then coming back and seeing my patient by doing a Bare Metal Restore has a lot few headaches.

I just reposted my slide presentation on backups. I spent hours doing it. It's not a bad read and neither are Wendell's backups.

You are right about the backup going to the folder. Very dumb. But, AC doesn't know everyone's computer. That file won't help in a crash. But, at bare minimum, it will help if someone moves the AmazingCharts.mdf file by mistake and corrupts it.

I once had a script that would remove every tenth backup. I must admit I could never get the date to work correctly. But, I am sure with a little work, you could Google scripts or script writers and find someone who could write a script that would reside in AC's folder and delete each new file.

For your sake, please back AC up off the computer. Please have at least five days worth. Please back them up to two different places. I need a sports doctor I can consult with.

Bert:

I agree with your post. I am all for backing up ALL important DATA into other places, including a cloud, a seperate partition and a seperate drive.

Right now for AC stuff, I just back up my .enc file. The reason is that i use updox for uploading imports so it goes directly to AC from updox without saving them on my computer. . .

I would also back up all DATA that is needed for any reason from there server. So if you have pdf, faxes, reports, presentations, financials, etc etc etc i would back it ALL up to multiple places.

I just wouldn't back up programs/applications. I totally agree on backing up your other systems. I don't use medisoft ... i dont' even know what it does, but i will look into it!!

KEtan

Medisoft is a billing program. I agree with your statements. I just don't know if we all know where all of our important documents are. On personal computers (even one used as a main computer), it is probably in My Documents.

My analogy, although probably not a great one, is if I am in my car, and an earthquake starts right behind me, I am going to drive my car away and then pick out the important stuff rather than sit there and pick out the important stuff.

Pretty good, huh?

Bert:

lol...nice point . . . however a few of us know where our important docs are. . .that is ONE thing i have right on the whole system! Once in a while I also diagnose my patients correctly and give them good advice!

Cheap shot! LOL.

I'm starting to call it my desktop on my icons rather than my icons on my desktop.

Hey actually it was a cheapshot at myself!!

Depending on whether "docs" = documents or doctors. You are going to into the top posters pretty soon.

and my life long dream has now been achieved!

Like George says in seinfeld "leave on a high note"! so I should get up throw my hands up in the air and say "I'm Out!" since when i achieve this dream!