Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Keeping a Warm Backup

Does anyone have a Warm Backup situation with their AC.

What I mean is if the server holding the AC database goes down, what is the plan for bringing things up fast.

I have done the following
1) Installed another machine with sql express(installed AC on it with local db option)
2) Have a job that continously keeps copying the imported folder 3 times a day.
3) I have a shadow copy of the origional database files being copied to another folder on the network.
4) 3 times a day I copy the shadow copy db files from the backup location to backup machine.
3) On the Stop the sql service, copy the mdf files ( for user databases) and then restart the service. This happens

Now if the main server dies, then I can just ask the staff to point thier AC installation to the new machine by selecting the amazingcharts.xml file and they are up and running.

I am a part time IT for the staff. So I hate when I am in a meeting and getting a SMS from staff that computer is down and I have to scramble. 2 days ago my network card went down. It too me while to replace that etc.

Basicaly what I am doing in old time log shipping.

Srini:

This is coming from someone who is obsessed with backups (ask Adam) and preaches constantly about the need for redundant backups.I have to say that I think your method in all due respect is serious overkill. Just get a backup program capable of running constantly T-SQL backups and back up the imported items.

It's one thing for your server to crash, meaning no more information can be sent to it, and you simply are stuck redirecting faxes to paper and maybe using paper progress notes that can be re-entered manually.

A server just shouldn't shut down very often as in maybe yearly. I would never trust my staff to send me an SMS text file and then reconnect to a different database, which I would then have to move back to the original server.

While I do have the capability using a backup program to seamlessly back up the databases every 15 minutes, hourly or whatever, I do so hourly because the feature is there. Other than that losing one day's worth of imported files doesn't bother me that much and, as you referenced, you can get those back from your shadow copies.

Personally, from just reading your system, I think it would cause far more problems than just going with a daily backup possibly augmented by some database backups.

Well the problem is that you are the IT guy for your practice, but I have a staff and docs who are scared of anything wrong with computer.

If the server goes down like it did 2 days ago(NIC went bad, so network connectivity) and I was out in a conference, so it took me a day to come back and then the staff was jumping up and down since they could not get to schedule, docs were not happy as they could not get to notes etc. They started questioning the whole paperless office thing.

I know probably it is a overkill, but that is what we do in our production machines in corp IT. We call them "warm" backups.
Here the warm backup machine will be one of the other users machine with sql express running and database being restored ever 3 hours with imported files being replicated. But then on the phone I can tell them to redirect.

But then lets me see how this works.

Srini,

I know the feeling. When it was Access, I had a separate machine running, and I simply changed over the databases. Problem was, since it wasn't on the domain, I had to change to workgroups.

Let me look into something and get back.

Srini,

What are you using for your server?

windows 2008 server without a domain.

another thing I have been experimenting with this weekend has been RemoteApps. Looks like it is working with AC and Paperport(two main apps the staff needs).

This will help when you have a good server, some old computers with the staff and want remote management.

Bert have you experimented?

Hi Srini,

I haven't used Paperport, so I don't think I have. I find it ironic that I am over on E-E asking about your issue, lol. It does seem like a possibility. I am actually reading about it now with my FREE time.

http://help.globalscape.com/help/availl/Using_Microsoft_DFS_for_Failover.htm

I desperately need to do a backup...

Is there a way to backup a file in AC or am I just not seeing it? Could someone tell me how I can save a file (.xml, .csv, .txt) for my patient demographics?

gjunk,

In the Amazing Charts folder, there is a file/program called AmazingBackup.exe. If you have admin rights just click on it, if you are on a computer where you don't (doubtful), you have to right click on it and Run As administrator. But, to keep it simple just find the file and click on it.

I would recommend making a shortcut to it to your desktop. It doesn't have to even be on the same computer. You can browse to the folder from anywhere and save a shortcut to your desktop or anywhere and run it.

There are many options with it. But, even if you run it with no paths set and have it set where it doesn't back up your images or imported items or off site, it will still do a back up to your AC folder. Of course, I wouldn't recommend that. There is no way to separate out your demographics with a back up program other than exporting them and coping them somewhere. But, this backup will back up EVERYTHING you need anyway.

Also, as people have heard me say over and over, I hope this isn't the only backup you are going to do.

Do you have a PM program. Do you have other important files on your PC?

I actually tried the Import/Export option to backup Patient Demographics. I pressed the but and AC seemed to be generating the backup, but then my computer does not respond.

Has anyone encountered this problem too?

We don't have that many patients (approx 6000)

I am not sure what you call not responding. I mean yes my computer has frozen a bunch of times. Are you still able to move the mouse cursor?

I ask because I just tried it, and it does appear as if nothing is happening. Everything on the program is greyed out. I have 1/4 the patients you have, and it took over 2 1/2 minutes to download the .csv file. It may take you ten minutes to produce the file.

When hit Ctrl+Alt+Delete I check the Task Manager and check Applications, AC reports not responding.

AC entirely gets greyed out and just sits in the background.

Does that sound like what happens when you try to download the .csv?

BTW, I find it much easier to right click on the task bar and choose Task Manager from the pop up menu.

What you will see as soon as you click on export, Amazing Charts will say not running. If you check the processes under the processes tab, you will see that it is still alive and well. About 2 minutes later for me, the export is done and the Amazing Charts is running again in the task manager under applications.

I would just bring up the admin Import/Export window, click on the export demographics, watch everything turn grey or the tan color and go get a cup of coffee for 15 minutes. Come back, and I bet you it is done.

By the way, you don't have to do it from the server or main computer. You can run it from any computer which is connected to the database. Just keep in mind that it will download it into the AC folder on THAT computer, not the server.

What is a good inexpensive backup software for a server? The last few times I used the Windows backup program (with verify option) I get errors and a report the backup will not restore correctly (seen only in the report section of the backup-no error message is ever generated otherwise). I run Windows 2003 on a Dell Server (Power Edge SC 430). Ultimately the plan is to upgrade the Server yet no money for that at this time. I looked at Acronis yet their product for servers is over $1000! (I like their disk mirroring software and wonder if I could just use their clone program. I only have two hard drives in a RAID0 config). Thanks.

ScottM,

The best backup software made for support, reliability and cost (it can get costly if you do the addons, but with 2003 you will have VSS so that saves there) is Backup Assist, www.backupassist.com I have used it for years and it uses the ntBackup engine for backups. You can ask Adam and Leslie about it. This is simply what you buy -- period. If you don't like it, I will personally refund your money. (Well, at least for shipping). I simply don't know how much more strongly I can put it. I wouldn't even look at any other backup software. $249.00 - done. Support = 10 out of 10. Backup Assist will do imaging for 2008 products. The SQL add-on will allow every one minute backup of SQL Server so you would, in effect, never lose a note, although I run mine every three hours. This is on top of the nightly backup.

Click on the products button at the top. Nevermind, you won't find one. Backup Assist makes one product, and it is for servers. It has nine modes as far as what you want to back up to. You can mix and match. Compare this with Acronis which has TI home, TI this and that, TI server, TI for SBS. They keep adding more and more products, it is overwhelming. And, for some reason, they feel the need to change the name each time. The only downside to BA, is it is too inexpensive. I email them about that every now and then.

Speaking of Acronis, best imaging software ever. Great support 8.5/10. For your server, it would be $849.00 I would definitely not use clone. You would want to use backup. I will say this. Acronis has always been, the easiest, most efficient, easy to use imaging program ever. Simple. Perfect. In six years, it has NEVER missed a backup. Their last version was awesome. $699.00 and support was 10 out of 10.

Now, they have changed, and I emailed them to let them know that. Newest upgrade (and they are the ones to tell you the new upgrade is out and you should get it) IMO is horrible. The Acronis True Image for SBS or Servers was perfect. Now they switched to Acronis Backup and Restore 10.0 for SBS or Server. Just my opinion, but I hate it. Much more difficult. I uninstalled it immediately. But, in the end, it is Rock Solid. Remember, it has pretty much left Ghost and Drive Image in the dust. I do like the way they organize all your products, supoort time and serial numbers online.

So, which one to buy? Remember, the Patriots owner who said, "I liked it so much, I bought the company," when referring to Gillette? Well, I like them so much I have both.

But, for the money, support and everything else, get Backup Assist. Today. And both, of course, have trial versions.

(The inital setup for BA can be just a tad tricky -- not hard -- just have to be meticulous) I can walk you through it as can Adam for sure, don't want to speak for Leslie. Or, I will remote in to your PC and set it up for you if you would like.

Oh, and since you alluded to backup reports, the backup report for Backup Assist which is emailed to you daily has to be the the most detailed, logically formatted and best overall I have seen. Call me crazy, but I read it every day with my NY Times and coffee because it is so pretty. It's actually perfection. If you had email listed in your profile, I would email a copy to you.

Wow .. Bert that is really an ringing endorsement that I can hear here in Seattle

I have tried Acronis and for server they suck. They are great for PC. I have tried BackupExec and still trying them out.

My files and databases are covered, only think I am looking for is a bare metal backup that I can restore a different hardware if needed.

Does Backupit it? Can I do bare metal restores to another server or virtual server?

This is like an infomercial with that setup. The beauty of Backup Assist is that it uses the ntBackup engine and, therefore uses the same engine to restore the backup.

http://www.backupassist.com/BackupAssist/history.html

Just came out yesterday.

Scott, I gave you some good suggestions to your question. Did you get a chance to read it?

Question for Bert: You are recommending BackupAssist, but from my brief reading of the website, it backs up the files from your computer, but this is a complete copy, not a sync, I assume. Do you end up with multiple copies on the backup drive? Or is the prior file overwritten?

Is anyone using a sync type of backup? I played around with Microsoft's SyncToy a while ago, but it was beta and I didn't trust it for critical data. Anyone tried another sync backup?

I used to use a sync backup for offsite backup with version 3. I am just now working on testing backups on version 4. With version 4 I think there are some differences with connection strings if you want to restore to a different computer.

John,

I plead to you NOT to use a sync backup. For many, many reasons.

First, BackupAssist. And, let's look at this the way I always do:

1. Back up the entire computer first.
2. Make extra backups to your heart's content with any other backup program including Amazing Chart's backup program

First, Backup Assist:

1. I have looked at tens of backup programs (we are talking commercial programs -- not free sync programs like SyncToy (which if you search on here I have bragged about incessantly). I am talking about the big boys: Acronis, Backup Assist, Backup Exec, etc.
2. Backup Assist, without a doubt and for the money, is the best backup program out there. For one thing it works with ntBackup, therefore it doesn't work against Microsoft.
3. Because it can rename each backup by date, you can back up 100 backups or overwrite one back up. It's your choice. Right now, I simply set it to back up 30 backups and then delete one and add one. When I come to a new month, I make a complete backup dated Semptember 2009 and archive it at home. I also do a weekly backup of everything including installs and take home. Combined I have enough to go back until the year 2014. But, that is just overkill.
4. Backup Assist is backed up using the native ntBackup program. What does that mean? It means every backup you make can be restored using the native ntBackup program to any computer.
5. Backup Asist allows you to back up in Schedules including Basic, Intermediate, Professional, Grandfater-Father-Son, N-week daily, Daily + N-week daily, manual and the infamouse Tower of Hanoi backup. All these are configured automatically with just one touch.
6. Backup Assist has six backup modes including ntBackup, Imaging (2008 only), MS Exchange, SQL, rSync (incredible) File replication. You are not limited to one daily. You could do all five or six if wanted.
7. Backup Assist allows you to choose your destinatnion so it automatically knows how to make the backup which suits this the best. These are: External hard drive, tape, optical disk, Rev, Rev Quikstor, NAS, Local directory, FTP
8. Badckup Assist allows you to back up to one location and then it automatically moves that copy to another location, so you always have two copies for one backup. You can make a back up locally and then to an external or NAS. Therefore you have a local backup which is right on the server and a safer off computer backup.
9.Backup Assist's email report is (without a doubt) thte best formatted, easy to understand report of any backup program ever. At the bottom it shows every backup you have along with the storage space it is taking up and a graphic of your backups as to where they reside and how much space.
10. Backup Assists support is second to none. You can call, chat, email or what I find the best is to post your question in the forum. There is no Bert there. It will be answered by a Backup Assist technicial within 24 hours with your answer stored forever.
11. Backup Assist works with VSS or you can purchase the extra Open File backup which allows a snapshot of all your open files before it backs up assuring you don't miss open database files.
12. No backup program that does not have a SQL backup module can correctly backup a SQL Server ONLINE. Backup Assist will back up SQL Server Express while it is in use, without detaching or stopping the services. This allows for complete integrety of SQL backups.
13. Backup Assist with its Add-on for SQL (around $129.00) will allow you to do T-Backups therefore you can back up any SQL Backup including AC as often as you wish (say one minute if you wish), therefore insuring you never miss even a message. There is some overhead, so I tend to use it to back up every hour. You can set translational backups to backup 1 day or 30 days worth, but I would recommend 3 days. This is over and above the SQL backup you make nightly. The only good SQL backup ends in .bak period.
Backup Assist should give you a 15 day trial on the entire program including Exchagne Server if using a server software from Microsoft and the SQL backup. It is also compatible with rSync which is an offsite backup allowing back up of many, many GBs of imported items in minutes.

Now SYNC:

Sync sounds great. After you backup everything is synced and, therefore, what you have on your computer is now on the backup drive. Here is the issue. With a backup program, you can never go wrong. You have two modes: Backup and Restore. Anything you backup will backup your server data to the backup location. Period. At the end of the backup, whatever is on your server or wherever will now be BACKED UP to the destination drive.

With sync, it is synced this is much different. For two huge reasons. First and the worse case scenario: Many sync programs including SyncToy offer three or four different settings. A couple of these settings are such that during the sync process any file on your destination that is not on your server will now be on your server. So say you are syncing everyday and you change things on AC. Say delete medications or delete a patient. Say you also go into another folder and delete things you no longer want there or change things. With a certain type of sync, all of these changes would be written back over. Because it is sync. Sync is always very dangerous. Imagine you go to Home Depot and buy new shades and paint, paint your whole house over three days, put up new shades, get a new refrigerator and then buy three new beds. You don't want to lose this, so you click on sync. But, you have it in the wrong mode and now you are back to that hideous lavender color with a crappy fridge.

Sync is not backup! It is sync!

The way to look at it is this: Do you go to Toys R Us and purchase a toy stethoscopy or do you get a Littman? Do you use Excel for your books or QuickBooks? Do you go to Staples and get a $80 fax machine or do you get a Brother, Xerox or Toshiba?

Sit down and think about your data. You have patient data that is completely MISSION CRITICAL. You have billing data that is just as much MISSION CRITICAL. And, you probably have other things. You need to protect it with a COMMERCIAL BACKUP PROGRAM. Now this can be Backup Exec (by Symantec -- Yuk!), or Acronis or whatever. But, not a free SyncToy or AC's virtual IT guy. And, you should be backing up onsite to MULTIPLE places and offsite at least weekly.

Any questions?

I forget if I answered your main question. With Backup Assist, you can overwrite or append or do differential/incremental backups. Or, if you choose, you can set it to do 10, 100, or 1,000 backups before deleting the first one. Or you can set it to use up all space before deleting the oldest backup. Or you can set it to leave 10GBs of space before deleting the oldest backup. It will do whatever you want it to do.

I will say this again as I alluded to it in my above post and forgot to address it. I have said it in many of my backup posts. The chance of your needing your backup due to a hard drive crash is probably 1 in 100. The chance of your needed a backup because you lose a file is probably 1 in 10. Don't know how many times, my nurse has deleted a fax that came in. All I had to do was go into VSS or a backup and get it. The more backups you have the better your opportunity to go back and grab a file that you discovered missing four weeks later. You can't do that if you sync. You just synced your data with the missing file. So you have a perfectly synced hard drive -- just don't have that file you are missing.

Reading you loud & clear, Bert. Thanks for the full explanation.

NP. And, I just spoke with Stuart, one of the moderators at the boards there and anyone can sign up at:

https://secure.backupassist.com/phpBB3/

so if you had any questions. Also, the trial periods is 30 days with extensions as needed.

No, I don't work for Backup Assist. And, you can ask Leslie and Adam as well.

I am using BUA and everything Bert said is true. It is a great product. When I had a problem (can't remember now what it was), the support was great. As a matter of fact, I found out the support center guy is in my city a few blocks away. Speaks English and everything!!!

I wholeheartedly recommend BUA.


Leslie