Home Forums Discussions General Discussion The EULA debate - Comments Please

The latest version of the EULA is now online at http://amazingcharts.com/company/EULA.pdf.

It removes the annual subscription verbiage(which we had never enforced anyway).

Also, check out the upcoming MDNet Guide for an article on the EULA which refers to the input from this board and our users.

I believe "revolkable" is spelled "revocable" on Page 2 of 8, first paragraph.

Changes are good - gets rid of the "subscription" complaint. Should make people less concerned.

sounds fair to me, thanks for listening to users concerns Jon!

Hopefully everyone who has had problems with the EULA in the past will log on and look - I think what he has put on now is fair and pretty straightforward. I know there has been lots of gumbling here and other places about the EULA and the concept of a way to turn off the program by AC - hopefully Jon makes it clear that he has no intention of just turning people off on a whim. Looking forward to a new version of AC.

I did not have major problems with the EULA. I did think it was a significant departure from the one I originaly agreed to, but there was no problem unless Jon sold to Humana or the like. (In which case we might be screwed)

This EULA is back to the spirit of the original. I feel it is fair, to the point and

(oops, I accidently hit send)

This EULA is back to the spirit of the original. I feel it is fair, to the point and is just what was needed.

I have always been a supporter of the EULA and have always found the debate to be a huge waste of time. But, I must say that I find the phrase,

"AmazingCharts.com, Inc. has the ability to terminate access to most of the features of the Amazing Charts software and services."

to be untenable.

I am still perplexed as to why some parts of some EULAs are in all caps and others aren't.

Thank you Bert.

I was hoping that someone would have the guts to say what needed to be said besides just me sticking my neck too far out as always....

Paul

Not a problem. Call 'em as I see 'em. But, then you're the ref

Thanks for the comments everybody. I fixed the spelling and some other issues and posted it at www.amazingcharts.com/EULA.pdf

I believe the EULA clarifies that nobody's data is ever held hostage (even if their license is terminated), and that one doesn't need to subscribe to anything to have the right to use Amazing Charts.

That said, Bert and Paul, how would you propose I handle the (rare) user that doesn't abide by common courtesy and behaves in a manner similar to your most difficult Axis II patient? For example, the user that calls and threatens the staff (yes, it happens occassionally), or publically defames Amazing Charts by posting information they know to be false as a means to manipulate the company to bend to their personal bidding (yes, it happens)?

These type of users - like the difficult patient you've had to discharge from your practice because their behavior disrupts your staff and other patients - we do not want to be apart of our growing community and we don't want their behavior distracting from our continuing effort to improve Amazing Charts for the majority of our users.

In the past, asking these people to find a different software company that can serve their needs has not prevented them from continuing to mis-use Amazing Charts. So if you can think of a better way to handle these situations, I'm all for it.

OK, here's my take. As one who had serious issues with the previous EULA which was capable of holding my data hostage, let me say I have no problems with the current EULA. I personally think it reflects Jon's committment to his program. Like the majority of AC user's, I believe, he marches to somewhat of a different drummer than the big, Wall- Street ignorant suits. He takes his program seriously and that includes taking it personally when it is abused, misused and pooped upon. I grew up the daughter of a fifth generation haberdasher and if I heard one time "the customer is always right" I heard it a thousand. However, when I opened my own practice I realized that was bullchitt. Since then, like Bert has also said, I do take it personally when a "customer" treats me or my staff badly. In fact, my staff knows that I will defend them completely and show "customers" the door if they are abused or spoken to rudely.
So, I appreciate Jon's protection of his program. I also feel, after having met him in person, that he will work hard to help his users (within reason) just as most any of you will work hard for your patients. I know this EULA has had some bad press on a Yahoo chat board. It was called "one of the most unfriendly EULA's" ever. I propose that poster really has no idea just how revolutionary, down-to-Earth, and common-sense it is. Although his own practice lies outside the main stream medical practice, he was unwilling to see the similarities between his "anti-establishment" practice style and the AC EULA.
So, as long as I am assured that I will have access to my patient's data regardless of my relationship with Jon, I am satisfied. I have had prior experience with another program where I lost everything because of corrupted backup data. That program was not the least bit interested in helping me explore any and every avenue to retrieve it. I believe (and I hope I am right) that Jon and his crew would do everything in their power to help me should I have a similar experience now.
I really do respect Jon's bold EULA and his passionate love for his product.

Leslie

First, let me reiterate that I have always been a staunch supporter of the EULA. I have always thought that it has been overblown partially because I have not at all been worried about my data being held hostage (it can't) or my AC being turned off (I am also not worried about that -- not only for my belief you wouldn't do that but also because I think it can't be done -- although I suppose, like Microsoft, Genuine Authenticity scripts could be introduced via upgrades). I just don't know what things could be turned off. And, unlike Microsoft, where having your pirated version of XP or Vista shut down means installing a paid version, it would be easy to go back to another version of AC.

I just objected to the one line where it stated that AC does have the power to do that -- not just the right but the technology.

Now to address the questions:

There are three major areas we are talking about. I think we forget this when talking about users.

1. Abusing support staff. No one should be allowed to abuse your support. I think that is relatively simple. If they are abused, you no longer take their calls. Either forever or maybe for six months to a year. I don't think anyone would object to that. I have excellent support contracts with HP, Acronis, Backup Assist, etc., but if I went off on them in a manner that was considered offensive, they would have the right to terminate my support contract even if it meant refunding any money I had paid.

2. The boards. I could make that analogy again to Microsoft. Anyone at anytime can go off on Microsoft on boards pertaining to them. Now that may not be true on boards that they particularly sponsor, and I do think you have a right to "police" your boards when it comes to extremely derogatory comments. I would define that as comments that do not pertain to Amazing Charts in general. Whether or not a post is based on fact or not is a tough decision and a judgment call. While freedom of speech does not mean you have the right to "yell fire in a crowded theater," it probably does give you the right to say the theater is the dirtiest you have ever been in even if it is clean and immaculate. Saying derogatory things about your staff or another user may meet the criteria of being unacceptable. But, no matter what your criteria is, a user can be banned easily from the boards. Hell, I even have that power, although I would never use it as I would leave that up to you. I don't think, all in all, that negative comments about AC have not hurt AC, because the users are bright enough to discern comments which are not accurate.

3. The use of AC and its data. This I would leave alone as the top two basically cover all of your scenarios.

I don't think the discussion of the EULA has anything to do with how good a program AC is or how good and nice the owner is. That said, I do think that AC is, by far, the best EMR program on earth, and I tell that to people all the time. As a power user and a moderator and one who posts a lot, I have received at least 25 phone calls in regard to whether or not a prospective customer should use AC. In every instance, I have spent quite a bit of my personal time going over AC in detail and bragging on its capabilities.

Lastly, I do think this whole EULA thing has been blown way out of proportion, and I have told certain people this both on the board and in emails and phone calls. I do appreciate your going above and beyond to seek input to the EULA and trying to make it more user friendly.

I hope that we can put the whole EULA thing behind us and we can move toward improving AC, especially the little details that all of us would love incorporated into the program.

That's just my little line to help promote those changes.

For the most part I whole heartedly agree with everything that has been said in the last few posts. My one real objection has always been lease verses ownership, right to continue from any given date forward to still be allowed, perhaps with support limited or terminated, the actual program itself under the original terms and conditions, in the number of legally last purchased licenses (which Jon and AC are some of the most generous of in this entire business, medical or otherwise). In this way if both parties, AC and the licensed user, decide to part ways, then that user can continue to use the program that he/she originally purchased.

Again my tools to create intellectual property position I think speaks for itself. MS creates programs that then allow folks like Jon, AC to use to create tools (programs and software like AC, QuickBooks, Word Perfect) for end users like ourselves, AC's customers. Restricting Jon's, AC's access to such programs unjustly would not only punish AC but any and all users and patients down the entire food chain. AC is Jon's intellectual property and he should have a protected right to fix, update and care for and to contiue to use and sell this program that he created with these MS tools.


Then we the end users use AC itself as a tool to then create what is by most legal opinions a form of mutually held intellectual property and what in many cases will become a legal document, and patient's chart. These charts we create using the tool that Jon, AC sold are our intellectual property as well as that of any given patient whose chart was created in our tool, AC. Again, any form of limitation to access to the chart and to be able to continue to build and grow that chart is not acceptable. They are ours and our patients' charts and many of us are now importing labs, running ECG's, scans, scanned documents and other items into other sections of these charts as well. I think it would be a nightmare to have to separate out and recompile in a HIPPA compliant manor all of these items, no less the data in the charts themselves, such as growth charts, vitals, vaccines and meds and all the other things that we use AC for every day.

I just feel that if AC and a user decide to part ways, then that user should still be able to "fly without a net" so to say, and continue using the program, understanding there is no more support or responsibility on the part of AC and Jon. And I certainly hope that Jon and AC are allowed to protect their intellectual property to the fullest and I would be one of the first in line to assist Jon in doing so if such a situation were to ever occure where someone was blantantly abusing the their rights to use the program or bootlegging it. As an academic, a man of science,and a creator of my own music I find such behavor totally unacceptable.

Also I find the fact that each and everytime someone boots AC on any client that AC "Phones Home" pretty upsetting. We wish that such a feature was able to be turned off without any penalty or reduction in functionality of the product. As most of you here know Nancy and I are real consitutional privacy advocates and having this privacy laden program constantly "phoning in" we find very upsetting. Can such a thing be done and would you be OK with that Jon? Why did you add this feature in the first place? What is it for and what are you checking for or collecting? Thanks.

And I too like Bert have taken many hours of my own personal time raving about AC and FAP to many people both on line and at conferences and meetings like the IMP Camp Nancy and I attended this past spring while many of you were at the AC conference in Branson. AC is certainly the best bang for your buck EMR wise in the industry bar none. And every day I boot my laptop or log on from home to use AC I thank my lucky stars that we have Jon who created it, and AC itself which has become the backbone and the form around which much of our office flow has taken shape. Lastly, thanks to this forum, I have learned so much about computers and tech that now I am half qualified to keep this office up and running for my wife everyday and I thank Jon for that as well.

Thanks for a great product at an unbeatable price and license structure and can't we just clean up this one section so we can be done with all this non-sense already? We all are really just about on the same page here.

And who was flogging AC at Yahoo? Does anybody know? This is the first I've heard of it. This one sticking point is really my only major peeve with the EULA and I am honest with anyone I speak to about the product verses this one issue. Thanks for listening and taking feedback and input as you have always done.

Paul and Nancy

Thanks for the comments and support. Actually, I also am quite concerned about privacy issues as well (my other website - AfraidToAsk.com - actually sued the government to stop them from introducing legislation that allowed censorship in schools and libraries. We were represented by the ACLU, and won in federal court, only to have that win reversed by the Supreme court (check out http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/Supreme_Court/briefs/02-361/02-361.mer.resp.mcpl.pdf).

Thus, I certainly feel your concern with the program "phoning home." The main reason Amazing Charts phones home is so it can automatically be updated with interface data, which is regularly being turned on as folks sign up for lab and other interfaces AND to allow us to announce issues. Specifically, I felt I needed a way that every user could learn about serious bugs or errors that could put data in jeopardy. This came about because of an error introduced a number of years ago, where a released ICD-9 code database had the wrong ICD code attached to the description. A nasty error, and while we emailed everybody as soon as we discovered the problem, many of the emails we had were no longer in service, and a bunch of our emails never got delivered because of spam filters that blocked the mass mailing.

I realized then that we needed a way for the user to get a brief alert if such an error ever recurred, and thus we built this feature.

The actual data uploaded to Amazing Charts only includes the practice ID number (or the practice email address) which we use to connect the data to our database of registered users. The data downloaded includes announcements and information related to what services the practice has. Nothing more.

Sound okay?

Sounds fine.

Actually it sounds pretty neat and a great idea. So that is how the new announcments we see on the main screen at the lower left hand side get there I gather. Did you come up with that yourself or did you see something similar on another program, be it medical or otherwise? Great idea.

Jonathan, maybe we could have a "pass key" that you could send us, that would be good for a time, (9 days comes to mind) so that when we have service problems, we could call you on the phone, tell you what happened, and you could (after verifying we were a customer in good stead) send us a pass key that would let the system run full speed while we continue to --- around with Verizon trying to get our internet fixed.

Here we are in Los Angeles, (not a small town, even for California!) and while we attempted to have Verizon UPGRADE our service, we wound up with NO internet service for 9 (NINE) 7 + 2 = 9 days. During this time AC would run, but sort of in a limp mode, very slow, and we had to reconnect frequently. (We have no high speed internet as the building owner won't allow TIME WARNER to climb all over the building and drag cable in.) We had to get the Mayor of the city of Downey to intercede on our behalf before we could get the internet service running.
It was a very trying time.!

Martin,

You lost me on that one. How did not having Internet cause your Amazing Charts to run more slowly? And, I don't quite understand where the "7 + 2" came from.

I do know that 7 + 2 = 9, however.

Martin,

Actually our connection to the net doesn't affect Amazing Charts speed. The way it works is as follows:

When Amazing Charts logs in, it checks to see if it can get on the internet. If not (e.g., no connection, firewall, etc), Amazing Charts just skips "calling home." It is only after 90 days of no connection that it starts to warn the end user that a connection will be needed soon, and then another 30 days after that it only allows logging into the Admin section (the thought being folks aren't planning on using the program and just want to export all their data).

If after 120 days (4 months) the program has been unable to connect, it pops open a window that needs a code. If entered, the program will run again without problems for another 4 months. This is designed for folks who just don't use the program while on the Internet, or don't have connectivity since being on the net is not required to use Amazing Charts. In these instances, the users calls us, and we provide a code.

Other than this step, and using e-prescribing which must verify itself, Amazing Charts doesn't connect over the net during the vast majority of program use. If you are using e-prescribing but don't have an internet connection, this will slow down Amazing Charts each time you go to write a script, as it tries to connect for about 10 seconds before timing out. To remedy this situation, one would turn off e-rx in the Admin section | Interfaces tab until the connection works again.

Thus, I don't think it was your Internet connection that affected AC...

Jon

This sounds as if I am required to continue paying the yearly GOLD SUPPORT fee to continue to use Amazing Charts. Thought I signed up for the one time $995 and have opted to pay the yearly support fee. If a code is required after 120 days, is it ALWAYS provided WITHOUT paying for support? If not, then this is definitely a subscription model - pay to continue to use.

Hope I'm misreading this...

billl, I think you are misreading this. From the description, if there is an Internet connection (for bug reporting or announcements), you are fine and can use the program forever. If, on the other hand, you don't have Internet, then it works for 120 days at which point you call for a code and it runs another 120 days to perpetuity.

It is confusing but that was my take on it. I think that the fact that after Jon talks about an Internet connection, he says immediately "If not." If you focus on the opposite, i.e. having an Internet connection so that it "phones home," then it seems to indicate you can use your current version forever whether you pay or not. However, you would receive no updates or support.

There is no requirement to have our maintenace/support service, just to follow the rules of the EULA.

If you don't have Internet, we provide you with the code whether or not you subscribe to our support/maintenance.

By the way, check out the article I wrote regarding this whole EULA debate at mdng.com (this month's tech talk article).

Thanks for the clarification. Very reasonable and responsible approach, as I've come to expect from JB and AC