Home Forums AC on it's own server?

John, Office 365 is a great product. Using it along or along with Essentials is very helpful.

The difference is SBS is run on a server computer and allows one to run a domain. If one does not wish to have a client/server domain, that is OK. If they do not choose to use the capabilities, of which there are many, that is OK. P2P is fine. If you use Office 365, it still doesn't change the limitations of a P2P network (which, again, is fine).

Caution: Friendly sarcasem ahead:

Are we actually talking about using SharePoint?

Finally, some people don't like to use the cloud. I, for one, do not. But, again, it is a great product.

I personally take offense at the notion that talk about computers at any level cuts down on user purchases. Sandeep has put hours and hours into this subject, and he and I spent out entire weekends helping Tom and giving out information on computing. I think potential users are smart enough and savvy enough to realize the difference. And, in no way was this thread hijacked.

I could write a caveat at the top of the board stating that any talk about servers should in no way discourage any user. A P2P is just fine.

The internet goes down for the day. O snap, can't access anything.

Comparing Office 365 and SBS Essentials is like comparing Office 2010 to Windows 7. They serve completely different functions. One is an office suite, while the other is an Operating System.

Lets think about this web-based viewing and editing of files. That means everything you have must be on the internet. You will have to upload everything.

You don't get a custom domain name. I'm pretty sure you have to purchase one if you don't want to use the default name.microsoft.com. Also, if you read the fine print under the $8 plan, it says " Please note: with E1 you can only view Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote files online. With E3 you can both edit and view these files online." So with the $8 plan you can't even edit documents. Why not just use google docs or better yet, Open Office. The web-based versions of these aren't the same as the complete version which is only available in the $20/month plan. By the end of one year, you could've had all of those professional licenses for life. Amazon and Newegg both do financing to spread out the payments too.

I believe the email is also limited to 500 emails/day. For everyone.

Office 365 was designed to be used in conjunction with SBS 2011 Essentials. You get the AD synchronization which manages the logons for the computers and users on the network as well as the Office 365 subscription in the cloud.

Bear in mind, Jon. A lot of the discussion had to do with hardware and RAID which I have said many times before applies to both desktops and servers.

These are things every user should be considering regardless if he/she goes with P2P. The same benefits of RAID (and faster hardware) apply to Windows 7 as they do to SBS 2011.

Another thing, the level of difficulty is a bit exaggerated. The setup is not that complex. I got through all of the configuration in 15 minutes while explaining every step. Then, got through the AC install in another 15 minutes.

Bert, Sandeep, et.al.

Don't stop writing
Don't get discouraged.

Bringing people like me along takes a while. I'm digesting, having engulfed quite a lot last weekend. But I now understand a lot about domains and servers that I never really had any clue about or interest in. The problem for me now is things like which hardware, what hard drives, how much RAID, whether SSD, and can I put Medware on the same server -- and will the office staff revolt if something goes wrong in the transition.

The future clearly is servers -- I've been doing P2P since Windows I, and it is outdated, though it certainly still works.
On the other hand, my wife will NEVER go with any form of EMR. So, we figure out how to run the whole thing with a paper duplicate.

Every once in a while all the power goes off, and we are glad we have paper and flashlights -- we can still practice.

These are questions people should be asking with their P2P setups as well. Servers can run on the same hardware as a desktop. I don't like how people only get RAID if they are on SBS. You should get it no matter which OS you have. Operating systems sit on top of the hardware. I'll say it a million times, it doesn't matter if you have Windows 7 or Server 2008R2 DataCenter, get good hardware.

Also, if you have a budget in mind, check out the recommended thread. Price has dropped a bit with hard drives returning back to their normal prices (~100 for a 500GB Enterprise Drive). According to Dell a 500GB drive still costs $280 though lol.

You can run anything on an SSD that you can run on a regular HDD. Plus, we use Medware. Wish we had SSDs.

OK
Getting closer. Am I making any mistakes, in anyone's opinion? Haven't actually bought anything yet.

Are you getting sick of my questions? You can just stop answering -- I feel a little like a 3-year-old, "why, why, why". Only way to stop the whys is to stop answering, but of course, I will keep asking as long as someone keeps replying--

1. I like Newegg -- dealt with them for years, ever since they sold software in a real store in Portland. Plan to continue buying from them, even if a few$ cheaper somewhere else.

2. Sandeep says Crucial SSD, however I have dredged the internet and multiple reviews -- this is currently the one I am looking at (there are cheaper drives, by Crucial as well as Corsair):
-- Corsair Performance Pro Series CSSD-P256GBP-BK 2.5" 256GB SATA III MLC Internal Solid State Drive (SSD) Average Rating 5 out of 5 eggs(21 reviews)
Editor?s Choice Award ? Tech Power Up

This one is Marvell controller -- others are Sandy-something. There seems to be a debate about controllers.


3. Thought about building a server based on ASUS barebones system (have always had good luck with ASUS) but Newegg sells Lenovo complete system for less, and I have always had good luck with Lenovo:
-- Lenovo ThinkServer TS130 Tower Server System Intel Xeon E3-1225 3.10GHz 4GB 1 x 500 GB 7200 RPM 3.5" DC 11051CU
Ideal for SMB, branch offices & service providers

This to use with SBS Essentials. I can forgo Exchange for now.

The same system also comes without a hard drive, and I could put in two SSD's in RAID 1; I guess Sandeep always advocates for RAID, presumably for reliability. What is wrong with using the built-in motherboard RAID if I go that way? And has anyone ever had a SSD fail catastrophically?

There are a zillion Xeon processors -- how does anyone go about making a decision?
Doesn't seem like either Medware or AC really make huge demands on hardware, at least, not in a small office. Reliability is the main issue.

Thanks all--

Tom

Never sick of questions. Can't go wrong with Crucial or Intel. Essentials doesn't come with Exchange. I don't think you need it, but sometimes you have to believe us. Awesome product.

EVERY tech advocated for RAID. Crazy to go without RAID. Better performance and much more reliability. Can't replace backups! Don't go software RAID. Go with Hardware. I do think SQL will run faster on SSDs.

SSDs are flash drives and have no moving parts. Hence the speed, quiet and MTTF. But, it is relatively new technology. Plus, if you go with 128, you will have to use 1TB regular drives for data.

As far as parts, go with the recommendations on here by Sandeep or what he says.

Sandeep will kill me, but given all the new stuff you are doing, have you thought of just getting a Dell Server T110 or above? Warranty and the industry standard, and you can't go wrong.

Excellent Questions
1. Newegg and Amazon are my go to guys. I've started using Amazon more often due to the Prime Subscription. However, I'm also located in CA, so newegg takes a day or 2 as well. Sometimes I order specialty parts from B&H Photo.
2. You likely won't be able to tell the difference between SSDs in the real world. Sure in synthetic benchmarks, I'm sure the Corsair Performance will do better, but in real life, little to no difference. Just like DDR3 1333 MHZ vs 1600 RAM. Nice on paper, no real life difference.
3. I like SuperMicro when it comes to server motherboards. Asus ones tend to be lower-rated. They are more workstation boards than server boards. Server boards typically have no headphone jacks or anything like that.

Motherboard RAID is not true hardware RAID. A RAID Controller is essentially an independent computer. It has its own CPU, memory, etc. The motherboard RAID will use the system's resources.
1) RAID Will be in tact if motherboard goes bad
2) Transferable between computers
3) Better performance (especially with RAID 5)
4) Cache Memory (better performance)
5) Battery backed cache in case your computer loses power, the integrity of the array is maintained and writes will be completed at next power on.
6) Active monitoring (view health and status in the OS)
7) Email Alerts, management tools,
8) Much better support compared to mobo RAID support
9) Easier Recovery

I have 7 Crucials going strong. One of them in a fish tank.

I find the idea of going with 2 256GB drives interesting. Mainly because the price of SSDs are essentially linear meaning a 256GB drive costs almost 2 times as much as a 128GB Drive. Putting 4 128GB drives in a RAID 10 array would give you insane throughput and better redundancy. Just my 2 cents. Obviously this throughput isn't necessary with essentials. The only thing is that the RAID controller will cost you more as you'll need an 8 Port.

Depends on the demands of the user. There are 2 main sockets you should be looking at. (LGA 1155 Mid Range and LGA 2011 Enterprise Range)

That E3-1225 is the Mid Range (Ideal for single OS computers/servers). I'd see if you can find one with the E3-1230 or higher. E3-1230V2 Preferred. There are higher models like the E3-1270 which are a $100-$200 for an extra .1 GHz of Performance. There is little to no real world difference between the E3-1230 and E3-1270. The reason I recommend the E3-1230 over the 1220/1225 is that it has hyperthreading. (Looks like 8 cores instead of 4). These are great for Windows 7, SBS Essentials, SBS Standard. Very fast and good price. (Equivalent to i7-2600)

E5 Series CPUs are for LGA 2011. Get these if you plan on expansion. I.e. going to need a server that needs more than 32GB of RAM or if you are going to be running multiple virtual machines. (e.g. SBS 2011, Terminal Server (for iPads/thin clients) all on one server) These are "real" server boards. These are very pricey though (~$500 for dual socket). E5-2620 are hexacores and a good price point ($400) if such a setup is necessary. (Equivalent to i7-3930K)

These servers lack the things which make my suggested servers seem much more expensive. No Redundant Power Supply, Hardware RAID Card, No BBU, single hard drive, no hotswap bays on the case. If you take all those things out of my suggested, you'll get the same price. ($570 for a SuperMicro motherboard with remote managment, Antec EarthWatts 80+ Power Supply, Crucial 4GB ECC RAM, E3-1225 CPU,500GB WD RE4). All brand name and all with 5 star reviews. Kind of defeats the point. It says "server" but it's no different from a desktop.

Very helpful
I can't believe how generous you guys are.

Well, I can't keep up with the hardware as Sandeep does. But, I can do the other and the networking. You're welcome.

You're welcome



Lol you have more important things to keep up with. Hardware changes every week. You are by far the most knowledgeable physician I have met when it comes to technology, servers, networking, etc. And you actually like it too.

There are other "Enterprise" MLC SSDs available. Kingston Hyper X, Some Intels, Plextor M3.

I bring this up because the Plextor M3 128GB is on sale for 99.99. (256GB for $199) Also comes with a 5 year warranty (instead of 3). They are also tested before they leave the factory. They have to be confident with that warranty.

According to them: "Plextor strives to exceed industry standards with rigorous benchmark testing; before leaving the factory, each Plextor SSD is put through a 20-hour high temperature burn-in test and an intense simulation of real world environments. As a result, Plextor SSDs have a 0.59% average annual failure rate, which is one of the lowest in the industry."

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...-_-NA-_-NA-_-NA&Item=N82E16820249014

1. I had AC running on a Windows i5 machine with 4 GB in a peer to peer network and it worked fine.

2. Now I have SBS2011 standard server and I do not notice a whole lot of improvement in speed.

3. But remote access to multiple computers from a second office location has become a lot better.

So, if you have one office, stick with a Windows 7 64 bit P2P network, lot less complexity. But if you need remote access then go the route of SBS2011. For remote access, nothing works as fast as Windows SBS2011 remote work space - lot faster than LogMeIn, JumpDesktop, and even Windows remote access on port 3389.

SBS won't give you a speed boost. Just centralized management. Like you said remote access becomes much easier. File sharing just works.

For better speed you'll need better hardware and/or the full version of SQL.

For a solo practitioner, who has to be his own IT guy, Server software just adds to complexity without much advantage. If I did not need remote workspace and access from a second office location, I would have stayed with Windows 7 64 bit computer as AC "man computer" on a peer to peer network. It was working really well.

My Dell Inspiron 530 Windows 7 with i5 processors and 4 GB RAM worked well as AC "main computer", although, I suppose it may help to have i7 with 8 GB RAM - but I have no proof for that assertion. If I were buying a new computer for AC "main" that is what I would go with.

As a doctor, I need all my cognitive energies for medical decision making, not server or computer management.

It's only added difficulty if you don't know what you're doing . SBS Standard is not something you want to implement if you have limited IT knowledge. That's where SBS Essentials comes in. While SBS Standard is difficult it's still insanely easier to implement than Server 2008R2 with the same policies and settings. Reduced set up time and greater efficiency if implemented properly.

Technical requirements for HIPAA are intentionally kept vague at the moment. With all this meaningful use and technological advance, I suspect things like P2P networks won't be allowed for much longer. Either that or they'll start checking for security holes and you'll be forced to find a solution.

I agree with Sandeep at the invitation of hearing from others about servers. I appreciated your posts -- do not feel at though I am attacking you, but I do have some questions so that others may benefit.

I am confused as to why you had a P2P environment which was working fine, and you upgraded to a "standard version -- much more difficult to implement. Yes, Remote Work Access which allows one to set up their own Remote Web Workspace is nice, but I would hardly find it a reason to switch. It isn't terminal server. RDC would do the same without the bells and whistles.

There is no mention of SharePoint or Exchange Server. And, both are transparent, e.g. if you installed using the wizards, Exchange is not hard at all. You can set it up with your ISP and the POP3 Connector and be all set. I would love to see P2P rival Exchange on simplicity. With P2P each computer must set up its connections. With SBS, simply open up Outlook and it automatically configures it. It's actually quite fun to watch. And, now that you are "stuck" with SharePoint, you can see how nice it is.

I think you will find it takes no less time to manage it. There is nothing to manage. You just leave it alone, and it will email you daily that it is working correctly. Once DHCP (hopefully on) and DNS are set there is nothing to but gain the functionality of SBS...single sign on and the rest.

I can understand looking only at AC, but I always wonder why people don't look at the many other advantages that a server offers.

I would suggest 6GB to 8GB on the main computer if you have 64-bit. This will keep you from having issues with too little RAM when SQL takes it, but with 64-bit, you would use at 4GB, so that would probably get you by.

I always like to quote my networking guy with 35 years of Microsoft networking experience. As a MCITP, I ask him why he never works on P2P. His answer, "They are way too difficult to work on."

Caveat: I am only writing this in response to the above posts.

Yes, and I find the same is true of treating patients for hepatitis C or doing an upper endoscopy. The question is whether you want to choose a career path that requires you to make the effort to learn these things.

Thank you, Sanjeev for voicing your opinion. I maintain that this particular thought is held by the majority of physicians, not the minority.
But it seems to get me in trouble in some circles for saying so.

I have no idea why SanjeevP would randomly change to a server OS? Was it put on a server?

Second, just because a majority, doesn't make it right BUT, that's not the point. Some like client/server and some like P2P. Client/server more difficult to set up for most, but gives increased functionality FOR THOSE WHO WANT IT.

Bert, regarding my post above; the "majority viewpoint" I am asserting is NOT about the relative value of P2P and servers. It is about Sanjeev's quote that I printed: I think most docs don't want to be bothered with learning this stuff. It is EXACTLY the point. It is a choice they make; more medicine or more computer info. And they want to choose medicine.

Fair enough. That is probably my issue.

Bert--
You have made several references to SBS Essentials running DHCP rather than from the router (as I have now set up)

This from a Microsoft person:


SBS essentials is primarily desinged to use router DHCP for ease of deployment. DHCP is fully supported on the server if you want to use that, but it does provide an extra admin step that is not included as part of the dashboard admin. Personally I would continue to use the router DHCP as it integrates into the SBSe environment well, and if something ever happens to the server for it to be offline, your clients can still easiy get to the net.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This post is "AS IS" and confers no rights.
Michael Leworthy [MSFT]
Senior Technical Product Manager
Windows Server - SMB
Microsoft Corporation

Any comment?

I'm getting closer to understanding how this will all work in my environment.
I haven't figured out what to do with Remote Web Access-- when I try to set it up, the wizard tries to set up the router but chokes (say UPnP not enabled, but in the router setup screen it is enabled). Also, to use it, I guess I need some kind of web site, and the wizard sends me to GoDaddy to register and do a bunch of stuff. What will that get me?

How is web access different from Remote Desktop? Of course, I can't make that work yet, either -- must have the permissions wrong again. Logmein works fine -- I can see why people use it. Less fussing around.
I need remote access, because I do a lot of charting at home (I am STRONGLY discouraged from staying after office hours to do records.)

Also in reply to a couple of comments above -- Doctors don't do just doctor stuff. Many of us fly airplanes and other technical activities unrelated to medicine. I just happen to like to do electronics -- it's cheaper and safer than flying, for one thing, and it has some marginal relevance to medicine, especially nowadays.

Tom Duncan

First, your computer's will have their same IP address, subnet mask, and default gateway along with their DNS whether the server is up or not. Now, the DNS on the computers will allow the clients to route to the server and access the ISP via the port forwarders. Now, if your server is down, it cannot do this, but your clients (all done via wizards). The only way for a client to know how to get to an ISP would be to have that IP in their DNS. This would mean that DNS would not be the server IP, which it should be IF the clients are going to access the server.

In reading on TechNet, it talks about exactly what you were saying. Thus the server would have to actually get its IP address from the router. This also makes the DNS issue problematic since if the server's IP (let's say 192.168.1.2) changes as it receives different IPs from the router (not that often), the DNS on each client, x.2 will not find the new IP address. The article goes on to say how Microsoft changes this by having the server match up DNS IPs.



This is the typical setup. You have the server IP at the top with 192.168.1.2, the subnet mask, telling the computer which of the octets to look at, the default gateway, which is identical to the inside private address of the router, and the DNS which is always the same as the server IP. In the scenario of the router, it would provide the settings to ALL computers, including the server on this 1.x subnet. The only difference would be that the server's IP would be dynamic. Not sure the advantage. I would have a hard time allowing it, my hands would shake, and I wouldn't sleep at night. Getting to the Internet seems like a very small advantage, and I am still trying to see why you could unless the port forwarders were there.

As to UPnP issue, I am not sure why it is behaving that way. I think it is trying to access it automatically and, for whatever reason, is not. You must have a compatible router, http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkID=168957 although it does say it is enabled. There are many articles online which talk about doing it manually. Don't worry, it only took me two months to set up RWW, but that was a Cisco PIX command line issue.

You don't need a website, you need a public SSL certificate so that computers trying to access RWA, will know it can trust it. Sandeep stated 2011 will provide one for you. If so, you may have already installed it. Otherwise, you would need to purchase one for your server.



They are basically the same thing except RDC is a simple program to allow access and allows it quickly and securely. All computers must be enabled if you wish to access it, so you need to check the server under System Properties | Remote. Remote Web Access is a much more robust program allowing you to access the server and then access any computer you have permissions for. In 2011, you can now set up your view and make Remote Web Workspace so that you have quite a few things at your fingertips.

A LOT OF PEOPLE USE LOGMEIN is because they don't have SBS. It is not a lot less fuss. Well, maybe at the beginning. Unless you have LogMeIn ignition, (which is nice) getting to the computer can be time consuming. I use LMI three or four times a week to access my home computer.

But, once RDC and RWA are set up, they are simple. On my computer at home, I have four icons:

RWW
Outlook
SharePoint
RDC

One click I am at RWW. Basically a web interface to the network.
One click Outlook opens on MY computer but connected to Exchange so email sent to me gets to my home computer at the same time or faster than my client computer.
One click and I am at SharePoint with basically every contact, file, folder, calendar, internal websites, announcements on my desktop. Very cool.
RDC v6.1 or higher. The new set up is extremely cool and very secure. You open the program, and in the dropdown box, you have every computer and server listed. Click one and you are on that computer in about four to five seconds.

Did you watch the video? The UPnP just tries to tap into the router to open the port (443) automatically. This only works on their approved routers list. You can open it by yourself using portforward.com to find instructions for your router. You don't need to use GoDaddy with SBS Essentials. They give a free domain name (domain.remotewebacess.com) and SSL certificate. You just have to select the option for it. ("Get a personalized domain name from Microsoft") Just sign in with a hotmail account/Live account. It will do the rest. You do not need to buy a domain name.

The whole UPnP thing was to make it easier for people who don't know how to open ports. But you need to have one of their approved routers. There's a list on their site. Again opening a port is pretty simple.

The site will basically show what Bert posted above in the screen shot. A easy way to access all of your remote computers from one area.

The main reason is ease of deployment the other way as well. When the server is the DHCP server, it takes the load of the router. Also, you can be sure the proper DNS server will be selected.

Bert's 100% right. It's the smart thing to do when you have a server.

You get some more advanced features like you can see all the computers on the network. Set up zones like the first 10 addresses are for network printers, the server/other servers.

The reason why MS doesn't recommend since it can be confusing if you to try to add a role manually. Since essentials mainly consists of friendly wizards. Just watch part 5.

The more computers the have, the better it is to have the server managing it.

SBS sets this up for you. Just open port 443 and run the wizard. I like to use a URL shortner in conjunction with the free website. So instead of typing https://sluthra.remotewebacess.com, I just type bit.ly/sluthra in my address bar. You will have access to all of the computers on the network. It's recommended that you don't work directly on the server.

Tom,

Stay positive. If these are the biggest issues you run into, then you are fine. Basically Microsoft has reduced the key ports one needs to function well to the outside. 80, 443 and 987 for Sharepoint. One used to have to use port 3389 and, if you checked in the morning, there may be 5,000 or more hackers knocking on your door. This is because 3389 was the well known RDP port. Plus, you have to forward it to 3390, 3391 for every computer. Now, RDC uses 443 to traverse over HTTPS for an SSL connection. This connects to an RD Gateway on the server, which allows you to get to all of the other computers that the admin has given you permission to access. This is another example of centralized management.

So, you wouldn't be able to use an RDC client on a remote computer if 443 is not open. Are you able to access the Internet? And, if so, can you access your online banking or other secure site?

If you continue to have issues even manually, try picking up an inexpensive router that is on the list. The URL on my post above works now and shows all the ones that work. I know you say it is enabled. Then something else must be blocking it, but I don't know what that would be. You may need to reboot the server and/or reboot the router, the latter being more likely. You can run a small utility called TCP View from Systernals and see if 443 or https are open.

Finally, a tip I should have mentioned earlier. When SBS 2011 asks for a user name to be the admin, do NOT use admin or administrator or any likely username. Use a username that wouldn't be obvious. Your password should be at least 8 characters and contain at least one lowercase, one uppercase and one number preferably not at the beginning or end. The password should NEVER be given out to anyone even someone who arrives early or something to that effect. It can be written down but not on a sticky note on the monitor. You can put it at your house as a best bet. Or, write it down in code.

If you are having issues, just PM me and I'll show you how. It's pretty simple.

Bert/Sandeep --

Thanks for the ongoing conversation.

So far, this is entirely theoretical. I have Essentials as a trial from Microsoft, on an old laptop as the "server" and I have changed my regular home laptop so that it is on the TEST domain for a "client". Even though it is now on TEST domain, and I can no longer use it at the office on the LCC workgroup, I can use it on the internet and access my office computers with Remote Desktop Protocol. I don't fully understand this, but I'm not really interested in the details right now.

I also put AC on the "server" and restored a backup to the "server" so I have a real world test. I then put the "server" on my office network. So far, so good.
Runs fine -- my "client" accesses only the "server", and the rest of the workgroup just hums along as usual.

I'm working out details one by one before I ever even think about switching over.
It's not so much that I am driven by promise of improved performance, it's mostly an intellectual challenge -- but I know what will happen if I move too fast!

More detailed questions:

In the current setup, the little ActionTec gateway from CenturyLink (the telephone company) is currently bridged (DHCP disabled) to a Cisco router (which provides the addresses and port forwarding so I can use Remote Desktop Protocol), which in turn is hooked to a Gigabyte 20-port switch.

Are you telling me that the ActionTec gateway can just be hooked directly to the switch, the routing function in Essentials can be enabled, and I can dispense with the Cisco Router. Or should I leave the gateway and router in current configuration and just manually open Port 443?

Sandeep -- it's time to look at your videos again.

Have to run. Thanks all

Well, since you brought it up, you can use RDP from any computer that has Internet access to connect to another computer XP or WIN 7 with RDP availability.

It would be easier if you gave the model numbers of the ActionTek and Cisco, but I'll try anyway. A modem can double as a router and can be used many times in home setups to provide a connection to the Internet even without a router. In your setup, it sounds like your ActionTek is your modem. I would definitely connect it to your Cisco router/firewall and let the Cisco be the default gateway. The Cisco router would then connect to the switch along with the clients and server.

Once you are using the SBS setup, you will no longer need to port forward for RDC connection. That's part of the advantage.

One other thing. And, Sandeep and I were both adamant about the DHCP on the server. It has always been that way and is on Standard. But, here is a quote from my networking guy:

I can appreciate it goes against everything you have learned, and I have professed, but it is 100% correct. SBS essentials is no more like SBS standard than a hot dog is like a hamburger. Most ITpros like myself do move DHCP from the router to the server, which is quite acceptable, but it is not the way SBS essentials was designed.

Thanks

Still working on it.

Tom

Take your time.