Home Forums question re: imported items

I back up to AC every night, but my imported items cannot be backed up online to AC due to file size (? 13 G or so). Therefore, about once a week, I back up everything to an external flash drive, including the imported items. This is a bit of a pain, because it leaves me at risk to lose a week's worth of data. However, if I were to perform a separate nightly backup of my imported items folder, and then my main computer dies, would I be able to re-create my entire database from what is saved at AC (which does not include imported items) together with the separate imported items backup?

Maybe you should backup to your external hard drive daily and setup AC to do this automatically at a set time , that way you will have peace of mind
I do this daily and dont use AC online backup at all.
Bala

I recommend a RAID system. I was backing up to Carbonite before, but found it would take almost a week to get my data back at our download speeds. You can get a G-Safe with 2 swappable drives and buy a third drive. Then you just keep one in your car you swap out every few days. This way you have a backup drive, a redundant backup in case of failure, AND and offsite backup in case of the worst happening to your office.

The answer to your question, Luis, is yes. Many of us do it that way.

There are many ways to go about addressing this issue, and lots of threads here about them. Ideally your backup is automated. One choice is automated online backup. Restoration may take a little time, as boondoc says, though that depends on your download speed. Ours is much faster.
Another choice is an external hard drive in the office which is used for a nightly backup of imported items (and even an image of your entire drive). We use an ioSafe drive that is flood and fire proof.
For redundancy, you can do both of these.
Personally, I don't like the idea of carrying a drive home, though many do.

It's probably best to both the external hard drive/raid enclosure and offsite backup. Some offsite services offer a courier service in case of an emergency. They can deliver a hard drive with your data over night. They are a little pricey, but it's only necessary in an emergency. ($125 ground,$145 two-day, $165 overnight for crashplan). Nice to know I won't have to restore via the internet which could take days. I also have carbonite, but I have to admit, I'm not a fan of their service. I'm planning to move to crash plan when my subscription expires. You can even load a large initial transfer if you have a lot of data (at an extra charge). They'll send you a hard drive and you can load it up with a terabyte of data, then everything will be incremental after that. I'll likely do that since I have ~300GB to backup. (~80 days to backup at standard DSL speeds, so it's worth the cost).

Luis, I would seriously think about making a better backup plan. I am not sure if you are referring to your imported items only once a week or everything.

Basically, all of them should be backed up daily or, usually, nightly. Offsite is fine, but I would want copies I can see, and I don't have to rely on AC for.

Carbonite won't backup SQL. I looked at Crash Plan, and I couldn't tell. Intronis, iBackup and MozyPro will.

Be careful with only one thumb drive to back up to. I would have several or, better yet, just get some external drives and back up nightly. I hate to say it but why not back up the entire computer? Is there nothing else on it like, say, billing info that you would want to back up. Also, if you make the proper backups with system states, you can do restores and not have to deal with everything else. You are up and running in hours.

As Jon said, yes you can restore from AC's backup file. That is what it is for. Back up your imported items separately, then restore them separately.

You don't really need to backup SQL (mdf and ldf directly, AC backup does this). I would keep an incremental image of the server locally though. The enc file has your database. That should be fine for offsite backup. The enterprise versions of these even allow image backup/AD Backup/etc. It all depends on how much you want.

If you are backing up online and you think you are backing up the most important part of the computer (SQL), then you know that. Why would you not want to back up SQL?

Sure, it's great to back up most of your computer files. And, yes, you are set with the .enc file. But, you are not OK with SQL with most online backups.

Most enterprise versions such as with Carbonite are $599 a year and allow server backups but not SQL or Exchange for that matter.

In reference to some backup programs which back up SQL every five minutes or whatever you set, we are talking backups that take less than three seconds given they back up the T-logs only.

Luis,

To summarize the detailed and skilled opinions above, to be able to come back up in the event of a disaster, you will need three things along with your DIY (or skilled help):
<1> AC backups - at least nightly, and stored off your machine
<2> Imported Items [or FAP] separate backup, stored off the machine
<3> Image of the entire machine, from which you can restore the 'server' onto the same or different hardware.

Besides off-site automated backup, I would recommend that you invest in an inexpensive RAID NAS, and set it up somewhere in your office out of the way, and off the floor. Preferably NOT with other computers. You can backup all of the three above across the network, the data never leaves the practice, it is one of the fastest ways to restore, and you can automate 2 [or all 3 depending on the tools you choose] of these so it is not about anyone remembering.

Hi Indy,

Any recommendations as to brand/model of RAID NAS?

Thanks.Gene

I understand the recs that Luis use RAID, but that assumes he has a server and server OS, right? Does he?

I do a full system backup monthly, but never really plan to use this. I use a simple P2P setup, and our main computer runs only a few programs, mainly PM and AC. Because Windows computers accumulate crud over time and slow down, if I were to have a failure or want to move to a new computer, I have always installed a fresh copy of software and then added the data, rather than using the full system copy. It can be done relatively quickly.

Is there anything wrong with this approach?

Can't go wrong with Buffalo. Great machines. Great support.

Good point. If I had to guess, based on the question, I would say no.
_____

Yes, you can do RAID0, 1 and 5 on WIN 7 both hardware and software. Possibly others.

Everyone has their own approach but since you asked, I would say yes. First, I would say I agree that installing a fresh copy of Windows is a good way to go IF you are talking about a home computer or a client. When you are talking about Windows Server 2008 with Active Directory and Exchange Server and SQL, it is MUCH, MUCH quicker to pop in the Windows Install CD, browse to yesterdays backup, click restore, eat lunch and come back to a perfect computer.

I don't understand. Best practices would dictate that you do a full system backup nightly. You prove my point by saying you don't plan to use it. Then why do it? I think it is great that you do a full system backup, but once a month is not nearly enough. At least do once a week.

A lot of people forget the other value of backups especially doing many backups. I back up one year of data rotating weekly on the NAS. When I combine that with my TWO nightly backups, I have every file for a full year. There is probably just as much a chance that a user or even you will mistakenly delete a file or a file will become corrupt. If you notice today that this file is missing, it may have been deleted three weeks ago and you have now been unknowingly doing backups that don't contain that file. It's nice to have backups from three to four months ago.

Bert,
No server here, just simple P2P.
The full system backup is only my last option if everything else fails. ALL of my critical data is backed up daily, local in office to another computer, local off site with a drive I carry home, and in the cloud using JungleDisk(that I learned about from you). I have 5 rotating drives (one for each day)that I carry offsite, each has backups from 3 weeks. So, locally I can go back to individual days from 3 weeks, and then the full system monthly. I have been paying attention, and have redundancy. But, for me, and my P2P setup, it would be easier to buy a new computer and start fresh if mine fails; this is my thinking, rather than restore the full system which will have accumulated some crud.

I feel relatively safe, but I am reading all of these postings to rethink my backups and see if I need to modify my scheme. Thanks for your thoughts.

How often have you had to go to your backups to retrieve a lost file?

You asked. I agree. I think your backup plan is excellent. I don't like backing up to computers, but again, 100 people, 100 strategies. I think having three weeks worth of data is incredible and would put you in the top 2% to 3% or higher of those backing up here.

Jungle Disk is great, mainly for its de-duplication that most online backups don't use.

I think, since you asked, the only thing I would change would be that you make your "last resort" weekly instead of monthly.

I agree with your strategy given a non-server computer to just start over. It is likely better and you can upgrade your computer. But, again, I am not just talking a computer meltdown or a hard drive crash. What about the occasional virus or some other calamity. You have you applications and your backups but why not try the restore in 45 minutes and see what you have left.

How often have you had a flood or a fire?

Luckily, never a flood or fire at the office. Had a small fire at home, but no losses.

I guess one of the reasons that I don't like the full system backup is that I am using Acronis, and don't really understand it well. I am not sure I would really be comfortable restoring from it. Maybe I need something else, or to really learn to use it. Thank you again for backup advice from the master.

I have discovered something new today with JungleDisk and I am going to post it in the thread I started about copying imported items.

Now, that is ironic. We all take the backups home to avoid the floods and fires and you get a fire at home. Sorry to hear about that.

As I posted somewhere earlier, Acronis used to be my favorite backup software by far. I always say it was rock solid, relatively inexpensive, and it worked. Flawlessly. It is ironic that the interface could have been a bit more "techy," but then they went crazy and starting coming out with Acronis Backup and Recovery 11 Server for Windows. I had to go back to school to learn how to work with it vaults and backups and this and that. Acronis started coming out with too many versions, too often that were too complicated. I wrote them and told me I was no longer using them due to these issues. They acted like they cared, but they actually didn't.

I was using both Acronis and Backup Assist. Now, locally, just Backup Assist. Straightforward, one version, with add-ons for Exchange and SQL. Plus, the wizard brings up a page of multiple backup destinations to choose right away such as network, SAN, NAS, external drive, DVD, flash drive, etc. The best part of BA is that it works using the native Windows backup program only it puts it on steroids.

Would love to hear about your JD discovery.

Please put the link here. Thanks.

It is under the thread Copy imported items folder.

So for Sandeep - I am curious. If 300 GB takes 80 days to download at DSL speeds - how long would it take using a local external hard drive with USB 3. (since that is how I back up locally and AC is just on local base computer)

Donald Phillips MD Cedar Hill, texas

Can any of you tech folks give me your opinion about when USB 3.0 may be in more widespread use?

In looking at new computers, it seems to be in very limited use, only high end laptops. I am a fan of Lenovo desktops (not having the skills to build my own ). A quick check of their website did not turn up this option.

Going forward, an external hard drive with USB 3.0 seems very appealing.

If your computer has a spare PCI or PCI express slot, You can buy a USB 3 card and put it in the vacant slot of your computer and try out the USB 3. There are various opinions as to USB3 vs SATA
I have tried most of them and the speed depends on the harware configuration of your computer.
Grenville

Grenville is completely right. Here is a good article on eSATA vs USB3.0. Just going by the numbers, USB 3.0 seems faster, but data has to be converted if going from external SATA drives to SATA drives in your PC.

I used to have all USB 2.0 externals, I now have all eSATA drives. Plenty fast. Motherboards and other hardware using 3.0 are still pricier. 3.0 is not quite ready for prime time.

Best thing to do is try it. I was able to transfer 300GBs of data in an hour and a half. I am not sure what "DSL speeds" are, but I can't see 300GBs taking 80 days to download. But, I now invite a comeback from Sandeep, lol.

By DSL I meant, Digital Subscriber Line, as in my internet connection. Other examples include TimeWarner High Speed Internet, AT&T Uverse, etc. In other words, I'm saying it would take 80 days to upload my data to the internet. You're totally right about your external hard drive taking an hour or so.

Having worked in Telco, there is both a technology and performance difference between DSL and Cable Modems or Leased Lines; DSL runs on a copper pair, which are prone to physical plant issues(signal loss from a variety of causes) but, often more importantly, run through a device known as a concentrator, which [which not surprisingly] concentrates traffic within a a network segment before handing off upstream. DSL capacity within that segment is constrained by the concentrator, so DSL is infamous for under-performing during work hours, and will often make VOIP un-usable.

To clear a few things up, when I said upload my data at "DSL speeds", I was referring to my upload speed with my internet service provider. It would take around 80 days to UPLOAD 300 gigabytes of data at DSL's upload speed of 384 kilobits/second (.047 megabytes/second).

Backing up your data on an external hard drive should take a fraction of the time. I'm not sure if I'd trust that article about USB 3.0 vs. eSATA. Comparing a USB 3.0 hardware card against an eSATA port on a motherboard isn't exactly fair. We don't if this eSATA was using the motherboard's SATA controller or some JMicron eSATA port. (There's a difference even on the motherboard). Those 3 gigabit/sec (SATA2 limit) and 5 gigabit/sec (USB 3.0 Limit) are meaningless since those speeds are never actually reached. Another thing he didn't take into account is SATA3 (6 gigabit/sec limit), which is used on 90% SSDs nowadays. IMO, the differences are negligble. Most hard drives average around 90-110 megabytes/second which is less than 1 gigabit (125 Megabytes/second). Each has its benefits, but transfer rate is equal on both sides. Even a CAT6 Gigabit Ethernet cable could max out these drives.

Fun Stuff:
1 byte = 8 bits
1 Gigabit = .125 Gigabyte = 125 Megabytes
SATA 2 (aka SATA 3.0 GBPS) = 3 Gigabits/Second = 375 Megabytes/Second
SATA 3 (aka SATA 6.0 GBPS) = 6 Gigabits/Second = 750 Megabytes/second
USB 3.0 = 5 Gigabits/Second = 625 Megabytes/second
USB 2.0 = 480 Megabits/second = 60 Megabytes/Second
CAT 6/5e Gigabit Ethernet = 1 Gigabits/ Second = 125 Megabytes/second

With the exception of USB 2.0, all of the interfaces have more than enough bandwith to support the transfer speed of a hard drive.

Real World HDD Speeds = 100 Megabytes/second
Real World USB 2.0 Speeds = 25-35 Megabytes/second

As Indy pointed out, most consumer ISPs suffer from reduced bandwith during peak hours. It doesn't matter if you have cable or DSL. The way around it would be to buy your own T1 line (quite expensive at 300-400/month). But you get an SLA and guaranteed bandwith 1.5 Megabit UP and Down. Basically how consumer ISPs work is they buy the bandwith in bulk and sell it to the buyers. They might buy a T1 line and put 50 people on it or something like that for a very rough example.

Sandeep,

The author clearly stated that this was not a perfect test. I think his main point is that you have to take into account different things in the hardware. I definitely know what DSL means given I HAD one at home and have both cable 10 down 4 up and DSL 1.5up/down. One thing about DSL is you don't share it with anyone, although speeds depend on how far from the central office. It is similar to the comments above. Everything is different based on certain variables.

We use DSL in isolation for our VoIP phones and they are crystal clear high def. Time-Warner lost too many packets.

I think many times it is just a matter of fast, faster, fastest. I have five four SATAII SSD and three SATAIII SSDs. Can't say it is always 3Gb/s vs 6Gb/s, but the SATAIIIs are definitely faster.

That's exactly what I'm saying ^. But he made it seem like there was a definitive difference.

Also, it seemed people were thinking DSL speed was some sort of interface speed above. I was just trying to make it clear that I was referring to the upload time and speed of my internet connection.

SSDs are the one case that it's beneficial to use the SATA 3 interface. Since their speeds exceed 375 MB/s in some cases. For HDDs it makes no difference. So it's not surprising you notice a difference since the OCZ Vertex 3 top out around 550 MB/s. I didn't think it was worth mentioning since SSDs are incredibly expensive to use for storage.

Yes, it is CRUCIAL to understand that.

My Crucial M4s are 500 MB/s as well so I use SATA 3. But for everyone else using hard drives, SATA 2 or SATA 3 make no difference.

You flew right past my pun.

I saw it. But had to point out that my Crucial's are up there. And I couldn't think of a clever way to make fun of OCZ.

Thanks for everyone's comments - pun and all.

Donald Phillips MD Cedar Hill, Tx

You are most welcome. If only for the pun.

I would like to have any advice on the different online backup plans mentioned in the thread, Jungle Disk and CrashPlanPro. From what I can read online, Jungle Disk is inexpensive, used for daily backup, and cannot provide a hard drive the next day, while CrashPlanPro is probably more expensive (not sure how much for 1-2 servers, or could you use the free CrashPlan?), backs up data every 15 minutes, and can provide a hard drive the next day for a price. Both seem highly recommended, and maybe there is a better third option to discuss.

However, my highest desire would be to have an online service that would automatically keep a current, as well as 1 week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 1 month, 2 months, 3 months old images to protect against viruses.

Dan,

That is a very difficult question with a myriad of answers. The first recommendation would be to simply Google "online backup" and you will get the huge list of companies. Most of these, if not all, started out with the intent of backing up home computers. And, as you will see, most have evolved and offer home and business models.

As with anything, you will need to decide what you are looking for in a backup program:

1. Cost
2. Security
3. Ease of use
4. Whether it uses compression, encryption and/or deduplication vs incremental, etc.
5. What is your need to seed
6. What is your need to have a hard drive delivered
7. Key: Does it backup databases such as SQL Server or Exchange or SharePoint

There are the major players such as CrashPlan Pro, Jungle Disk, Mozy Pro, Carbonite. Each have their advantages and each have their faults.

One of the top backup programs which has evolved from its humble beginnings is iBackup, which does it all with dedupe and SQL backups. Hard drives to your doorstep, etc. CrashPlan Pro or Enterprise does not allow seeding and does not send hard drives anymore.

Some of these are real time backups known as CDP or Continuous Data Protection. I am not sure if I am a big fan of Cloud CDP yet. With CDP, it is imperative to have versioning "the ability to keep multiple versions of a file" otherwise you do not have multiple backups.

What you desire may not be able to be done online and would likely become pricey if it were done by the GB or even by bandwidth. Plus, with most online backups, if you send say 28GBs of initial data, this may take 3 or more days. This is why some companies allow you to seed. Copy the info to a hard drive and send it to them. They then copy it to your account.

I would highly recommend that you do your one week, two weeks, three weeks, etc. locally using local software. Using external drives, you can easily schedule these types of backups.

The thing, though, with multiple backups, after your get past five days or so, you will have lost a lot of data. Losing a lot is better than losing all, but if you have redundant backups, that won't be an issue. Most people do backups that cover months are to be able to go back and grab files if ones were lost or corrupt. Your strategy for a virus is probably not a very good one. If you had a nasty virus or malware on your computer, then restoring a backup from two months ago is not a great idea. Yes, the virus is gone but so is two months of progress notes.

Personally, this is why I don't think it is a good idea to run AC on a computer that someone also uses. And, especially not on the reception computer where that staff member is proably more likely to go on You Tube and Facebook, etc.

So, in summary, it is always best to plan and implement a good local backup program to multiple drives and go back multiple days. The online backup is just more insurance. You basically want:

Onsite
Offsite
Online

Also, as far as the delivery of the information, it really doesn't matter if it takes 10 days. It is basically for catastrophe, so if there is a fire, flood or hurricane, getting your data back tomorrow is likely the last thing on your mind. Of course, if the catastrophe is that your server were stolen, then gettting it back fast would be necessary. But, you should use your local backups. If they were stolen, you still have your offsite. I like the idea of a pseudo-offsite. I am lucky to have a basement which is over 100 feet from the server and not easy to find. In other words, if someone grabs my server and backups, which makes no sense anyway as they are not out to cripple my practice just to get the data on the server or the hardware; they aren't going to know about the two Buffalo NASs in the basement. And, these are RAID5.

Hope this helps.

Thanks, that helps a lot cause I need an online backup, and I will research the iBackup.

Thanks for your extra time spent,

Dan