Home Forums Discussions General Discussion Multiple backups, multiple places

Is there some way to have the backup program running on the server as a scheduled backup and also manually backup from a client machine at a different time? I want the automatic backups to run at night, and the server is in another room in the building, but also like the idea of running a quickie backup to a thumb drive to take home when I leave.

Yes, you can do that. And, it's easiest if you make a shortcut from the backup program onto your desktop.

Thanks, Bert

I tried this, but changing settings in Backup on a client machine changes them on the server as well, and tech support confirms this. The better way to do this is just find the latest ENC file in the backups folder make a manual copy of that. Not as elegant, but not a huge task, either.

I did appreciate the suggestion made elsewhere of using a thumb drive for offsite backup. Lugging hard drives back and forth sort of tends not to happen.

Sorry, I didn't really understand the different locations, but it is still very easy to do. OK, you have the following:

\\Server\AC Backups\

L:\AC Backup Thumb drive\

When you run the manual one before you leave, you will back up an .enc file to your thumb drive and to your server location.

Later, the one that is scheduled will run resulting in a second backup on your server. Since your thumb drive is no longer there, no backup will be made to that location.

From my perspective, I find it better to have two backups to the server and one to my thumb drive, then one backup to the server and having to copy a file to my thumb drive. I am also confused as to where the file is coming from to copy to your thumb drive as it won't be made until later. The backups are relatively small (60MBs or so) so two of them wouldn't be a big deal especially since you are going to delete them after three or so. AC backups aren't worth much after three or four days compared with whole server backups, where you may wish to back up for a year or more.

Finally, and this is just my opinion, but I am rather wary of thumb drive backups. I don't know how many times I have looked all over for mine only to finally locate it the next day. They are relatively easy to lose and even easier to take. I suppose if you are going to use one, you may want to rename the file from your company name.enc to something harder to determine what it is for. I haven't tested that theory yet, but I am guessing it would be no problem.

Finally, you may want to look into IronKey, which is a flash drive which prides itself on being non-usable to anyone other than the owner. www.ironkey.com

I backup to the server folder, to an external drive, and to a thumb drive end of the day. 8gb thumb drive goes in the briefcase and is carried with me.

I'll puzzle that out, Bert. Thanks.

Having lived through server failures of various databases, I really have become a belt, suspenders, second pair of pants, second belt and second suspenders guy. We have a server with a 4 disk RAID drive, a second complete backup server with 4 disk Raid drive backed up from the first, and so far can do the offsite backup to AC. I foam at the mouth at the idea of single point failures, and can just imagine coming in to work to a blown server mother board that no one has in town but can get in 3 or 4 days, so the hardware expense is just peace of mind. Having the accounting server down merely delayed billing a few days; the EMR down would be a disaster. I just kind of like the thumb drive idea as a little extra something. I have your dissertation on online incremental backup services printed and have been reading it, but I figure we're safe for the moment so digesting all of it is not a super priority.

-- Redundancy
-- Backups
-- Security

All important, all almost the same, yet all different. Redundancy is no substitute for backups, and as you allude to, backups are no substitute for redundancy.

The weakest link here is human error. I can't help but thinking of how awhile ago I sat in front of a computer at that simple, yet critical moment where you are about to install Windows, and there is the screen where you create your partitions. I meant to delete, create and format the second drive, but I chose the first thereby losing all of my data. Thankfully, this was personal data. Irreplaceable, yes, but critical, no.

You will have to give me the link to the "dissertation." I can't remember where that is.

Bert,

Your brilliant treatise can be found at

http://www.amazingcharts.com/ub/ubb...ue/Re_Imported_items_file_size#Post21173

Thanks for the Ironkey link. That is an excellent suggestion, one that I will implement.

As a related issue, how big can I expect the data file (including imports) to eventually grow for a 4 provider practice?

David,

Thanks for the compliment. I think that incremental backups are being replaced rapidly with Single Instance Store (SIS) and De-duplication.

It's impossible to say how quickly your data file will grow including imports. I would have to say if you are importing everything, then it would be very fast.

Of course, I should clarify that your data file (AmazingCharts.mdf and AmazingCharts.ldf) will not grow fast at all even if you do have a lot of imported items as it contains only links to your imported items. However, if you are talking about a backup which contains your imported items, then you are going to have to choose not to back up the imported items if you plan to back up to AC.

My home computer just suffered a failed HDD. Fortunately, I have the Carbonite backup. But it looks like it will take a lot of time to get things back up again as all the applications have to be reinstalled. I have come to the conclusion that I need a Time Capsule external, wireless, continually updated HDD, but also will need to continue Carbonite: if the house burns down with your external HDD, end result is the same.

Even using a continuous backup will not solve your problem. In order to do a complete restore, you will either need a backup of the entire computer with boot CDs or the OS CD if WIN7 or higher. To do bare metal restores, you will need the system state as well, which most backup hardware like Mirra will not do.

Carbonite and Jungle Disk, etc. are best for backing up data only as they do cost for space, and it is a complete waste to backup your system drive every night or even the changed files.

Another way to do it is back up your data to wherever: Carbonite, an external drive, etc. But, you should have two drives in your computer if it is important or at LEAST partition it so you can restore from a backup to your system partition.

Your house is not going to burn down, and if it does, your computer data will be the last thing to worry about. At least that is my feeling -- of course I don't know your data. You could take a weekly backup to work for the data.

You don't always need a system backup every day. Your apps don't change much.

But, this is stuff we will cover at ACUC. I am amazed still that everyone concentrates on that little 100MB .enc AC backup file.

Good luck and install a RAID1. Did you have S.M.A.R.T. enabled in your BIOS?

As a related issue, how big can I expect the data file (including imports) to eventually grow for a 4 provider practice?

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FYI, we're growing at about 75 MB a day, including imports in our 4 provider practice with selective importing. I think the thumb drive is not going to last long.

So, are you saying that your AmazingCharts.mdf and AmazingCharts.ldf when added together are growing at 75MB per day. That is a lot of data when you are talking progress notes and messages, etc.

Your imported items will have no bearing on your database sizes. And, of course, Meds and Codes will not grow at all.

The part I don't understand is you should have the capability to move the ImportItems folder to a different location.

But, even you only have a 1TB hard drive, it would take 36 1/2 years to fill up at that rate.

Tech support said the practicename.enc file in the backup folder on the server was the file to back up. You are correct I'm not worried about local data storage, more about how to do an offsite backup without lugging a hard drive home. I know from experience that is difficult to bring to fruition reliably.

Since our imported items include all labs, x-rays,etc. (as well as old progress notes if you have scanned them in) it seems odd to consider backing up without backing up the imported items as well. What backup philosophy am I not getting here?

OK, here is what you are not getting, I believe:

First, before any explanations, back up your entire computer with a real backup program, and are you all set no matter what.

Now, either the tech person was wrong or you misunderstood him. What he/she probably said was the practicename.enc file in the BACKUP folder IS the backup. It is the backup that is the most important.

The practice.enc file contais the six databases (counting the data file and the log file) and a few other files and folders. The reason it exists and doesn't contain the imported items is for several reasons.

First, the file is the bare minimum to restore your application. This is why many of us use it to move or redo our Amazing Charts. You simply restore from it, and you are done.

Second, it will generally always remain small and manageable. Whether it is the time to make the backup (one to ten minutes most likely) or backing it up online, this is very important. My databases are roughly 850MBs, which backs up easily. SQL data has a good ratio of compression. My databases back up to a 65MB file after encryption and compression, which is why it will upload so quickly. If not, the GB file would take forever to upload and take up too much of AC's server space. The encryption does make the backup less compressible.

Now, let's look at the ImportItems folder, which of course, is made up of all folders of the patients for which you have imports. For a lot of people, the majority of files in the ImportItems folder is PDFs. PDFs are already highly compressed. Try it. Put about 100 PDFs in a folder and check out how many MBs it is. Then zip it. It will not be much smaller. So, if you include all of your imported items in your databases, it will get very large.

Moreover, if you were to include imported items directly into the database, they would be there forever. You would always have to back all of them up with the AC backup. Then you would be sitting there with this 3GB database. Also, SQL Express 2005's database has a 4GB limit making including imported items impractical.

So, for the most part, the only thing you are entering into the database are the messages, vaccines, progress notes, prescriptions, etc. Everything that HAS to be in the database. Every time you save an imported item, a link to that item is made in the AC database.

So, for backup purposes, you want to do two things. You want to make sure that databases are backed up, and you want to make sure your imported items are backed up. This is why you want to do a regular backup of the imported items. So, you could do this in a variety of ways:

1. Do the regular AC backup plus backup the ImportItems folder either by copy and paste or a backup program.
2. Back up the whole AC folder nightly with a backup program.
3. Back up the entire server with a backup program.
4. Or, best practices, do a number of these.

A quick way to do it would be to use Acronis or some other good imaging program and back up the entire computer nightly. Then before you leave, click on AC Backup and have another backup available. And, make sure to back it up to a safe place, preferably an external hard drive. While having the backups go to the AC folder, I think it is a disservice to many users as they think they are save. Given that backing up to the same computer or hard drive is not good practice, backing up to the same exact folder is crazy.

Take a look at your ImportItems folder in your AC folder. Mine is over 10GBs. That can be backed up in 30 minutes with good backup software. It would take awhile with the AC backup. The AC backup should be thought of as an extra backup. Nice and neat and encrypted and all one needs to restore the program plus the imported items. But, it should not be all of your backup strategy.

HTH. If not, please ask specific questions, and I will try to answer them for you.

As far as offsite backups, AC's is good, but I just have problems with data I can't see. Plus, compare the cost with other offsite backup programs. It's worth it for the convenience and the type of backup file, but there are other good choices out there.

Check out Jungle Disk, the workstation model. It gives you many, many versions to go back to. I only back up my data (my server data -- 20 Gig) to it. If I backed up the entire server it would be pricier. It works basically like a De-duplication backup. This is a backup that is similar to using incrementals or differentials, but with many advantages to it. With incrementals and differentials, you have ONE backup, and you are stuck with whether they work or not. With de-duplication you have the following strategy. It backs up the entire system or drive or folder or whatever you choose. So, the next day, when it goes to do the backup, it looks at your computer and says what is different about what I need to back up and what I have now. Oh, he added 2MBs of data to his databases and 10 new files to his imports. And, it backs this up. So, now your backup is identical, BUT you still have the backup from the day before. The confusing part is you don't really have twice the size. The backup software knows what new data belongs to what.

Day 1: Upload of all data - A + B + C + D
Day 2: Upload of "e" so you have A + B + C + D + (e)
Day 3: Upload of "f" but deletion of "g" so now
A + B + C + D + (e - f) for day 3

But, really you would have:

Day 1 0
Day 2 + e
Day 3 + e - f
Day 4 + e - f + g + h
Day 5 + e - f + g + h - e = - f + g + h

So, on any give backup, you just add the changs to the base backup, and you have the complete backup. So, if you wanted to know what your computer or your folder looked like on day 4, it would show you A + B + C + D + e - f + g + h

The price for this is Size of data on drive plus daily bandwidth used for backing up + any download bandwidth.

When you want to go back and see your imported items or other files, you click on restore and the dropdown box will allow you to choose any date. You then click it, and all of those files are there for you to see.

The key here that most people don't understand about backups is: every backup after day 3 will be missing f and every backup after day 5 will be missing f and e.

So a backup done today may have exactly what your system has and would be great if something happened given you have every piece of data there but... if someone had deleted f accidentially or you had even deleted it intentionally but wanted to get it back, you could go back and get it. Now, the thing to remember with backups is how far do you want to go back.

This is why some companies use Grandfather - Father - Son strategies or for those with IQs over 140 the Tower of Hanoi scheme. But these strategies allow you to have backups for over a year, without doing a year's worth of backups.

I guess I am doing my entire talk, so I better stop now. But de-duplication is really cool.

OK, I am officially way over my head. I did understand that the practicename.enc file WAS the backup but thought it contained the imported items as well. I just felt if I took the most recent one, copied it and took it offsite daily then I could at least revert to the time of that backup. So, I gather it does not contain the imported items?

Where does this put me in my quest to find an off site backup site? Can any of the offsite backup solutions cope with a program that seems to be growing by 75 MB a day (maybe more if that does not include imported items) other than taking a hard drive home every night?

I am going to take what you have here plus your previous backup piece to my IT guy. I will post his response and suggestion as well.

Yes, there are offsite servers which can back up unlimited amounts of data to a point. They want your money, lol.

The most IMPORTANT thing you can do is back up your ENTIRE computer nightly. The second would be to back up the AC folder. It's kind of like the old axiom History, history, history, exam...etc. You should think backup, backup, backup.

Remember, ten doctors will manage UTIs in a six month old or hyperbilirubinemia in a three day old differently. Just as long as they all get the bilirubin down and/or find out if the baby has reflux. Same way with backups. Tons of ways to do them, as long as you do them and do them in a way that keeps all of your data safe.

Will go over more later.

Also, as an experiment, move your ImportItems folder to another location and do a backup. You will find it is the same size.

I would either save to a portable HDD or USB key to take home, or leave the HDD at work and Carbonite the file online. This is encrypted and secure.

We have to entertain the possibility that someone could break in and grab the computers and all the external drives. Offsite backup for mission critical data is essential. However, so is a quick backup from an external drive as it will take many hours to restore from an online backup site over the internet.

Good strategies. There are many online backup services. I do not want to be critical of any of them. You have to really look at these backup programs and start with the assumption that all of them are designed to back up computers in sync fashion and have the beginner in mind. (I am not in any way suggesting that anyone who uses Carbonite is a beginner). I am just suggesting to start there and then see what else it does.

For instance, Carbonite has its basic version, but then offers Carbonite Pro with, obviously, better features. But, for some reason, you cannot backup system files or applications with Pro where as with the basic version you can back up applications but not system files. So, it is false for them to say you can back up and restore your entire computer.

Here are some advantages to Jungle Disk:

You can back up as many files, whatever files for as long as you want. There is no file size restriction you can back up. You can back up temp files, system files, applications, data files. Anything.

Storage is on either Amazon S3 or Rackspace (what AC uses). You have 256 bit encryption.

Jungle Disk also gives you the option of Legacy Backups or Vault Backups. This is not always true with other online backups. The vault backups on Jungle Disk allows compression and De-dupe backups, which is huge.

Invoice for one month:

http://www.box.net/shared/028snt43xj

Daily Backup Reports:

http://www.box.net/shared/0ttjoy81bq

OK, so maybe I was a little critical, lol. Just comparing and encouraging one to do the same.

Carbonite--isn't that the stuff on the Enterprise that reflects an aggressors weapon back at them?

I thought that was Kryptonite.

Carbonite is from star wars five. Han solo was stored in it.

Or, for a really awful pun, you could say Harrison Ford stored in it.

I missed the pun.

You guys are hijacking my thread. Wait it is David's thread, lol.

Never mind.

Bert, you gotta get out more..

Harrison Ford starred as Han Solo, who was in turn stored (imprisoned) in Carbonite, later rescued from its bondage and Jabba the Hut by princess Leia....

And you, a pediatrician, too. Gotta relate to your patient's culture, you know.

LOL. I got all that. I just didn't get how it was a pun. Unless it is because Ford rhymes with stored?

You're right... it was merely a rotten joke.

Anyway, I did implement your suggestion at the start of this thread, and it works. Jungle Disk is next. Thanks for the help.

Well, if you want the real treatise, you should see the emails to two users. Wow! It's my entire talk. Except, hopefully, my talk will be smoother and more polished.

OK, next question: Let's say I install Jungle disk, set it to backup the entire AC folder and the actual data file in that folder is 1 GB. It is all backed up as of Sunday night. Now, let's say I add just one record to AC on Monday. Does Jungle Disk then send information about just that one record, or is the entire data file re-sent as the file itself is changed?

First, let me see if I understand your question? Are you asking does it add just the one note, the new SQL database with the one note or the entire AC folder with the database that changed?

Well, I thought I knew the answer, but I wanted to test it, so I ran a backup of the Server with JD. The first backup was 154MBs, still not nearly the size of my SQL database.

The next backup after one progress note was 2.91MBs and 3 changed files. I suspect it is backing up to the log file, but I am not sure. I will ask around.

My question is, once the data has been backed up, how much stuff has to be dragged over the network with a subsequent backup if you make just a small change, like add one patient. Is it the whole 1GB, or just the small change?

See above answer. We crossed in cyberspace. It would only be the one small change.

Where you brought up a good point, whether you were asking it or not, was the following:

Obviously, if I add only one PDF file to a folder, it will update only that PDF file. What you had me going on was what if it is a progress note saved in a table in a SQL database, which is 1GB. Can it be granular enough to back up just the progress note? I would hope so otherwise, you would have to upload not only the .mdf file by the .ldf file as well.

Yes, that is my question. Can it just backup the change within the AC file.

It seems to be able to. I hope this isn't offensive, but it would be easier to talk apples to apples if by AC file, you mean the AmazingCharts.mdf database.

Thanks.

Probably that's what I mean. You need to help me out here. Remember, I'm not all that bright. I mean all the places where all the stuff I write or import about patients goes every day, and that change when I do that, and that I need to back up because the loss of it would be a catastrophe, unlike the program files and system stuff that I could shrug and get back any old time from a web site or the DVD that I bought at Geek City. THAT's the stuff I mean. So, which files are they, exactly?

Since databases are part of my thing let me give you two conceptual answers, then ask another 2 aspects of the same question.

If you are backing up a database from inside of the DB system itself, the backup is aware of row(record) structure, along with indexes/primary keys/foreign keys & transaction logs. A differential backup to the DB system is the data that changed since the last identified backup[commit] point.

From a file backup perspective, ala Jungle Disk (which I use as well), in a differential backup, it compares files, and backs up what has changed. If you have a 1 GB file, but in adding a new patient you only added 500k to the end of the file, a differential picks up that change of the file.

That said, I haven't poked at the AC DB files, but would suspect that in adding a patient, you may actually be adding child records in multiple tables, which may be written to the physical drive in multiple locations once the insert is completed. Index sizes and keys would typically be impacted as well.

So, the real questions are these:
<1> Does Jungle Disk compare files, and only copy those aspects [blocks] of the physical file that have changed? (I suspect so, but haven't tested). As you alluded, this would be superior to the file is different, copy the entire 1GB file again.

<2> How are the physical files of the AC DB changed as data is added? In particular, is the data end-appended, or is it modified in multiple locations throughout the file? Someone from AC would know more definitively.

I'd also note that the goings-on of using SQL Express vs. SQL Server are different beasts.